BOK Center, Tulsa - What is policy for off duty carry to venue for LEO's?

[doctorjj]

So the only crimes that are committed are in retaliation against police?

I'm not denying your right to protect yourself but you seem to be trying to limit mine. And yes, I have taken several training classes and can handle a weapon more proficiently than about 90% of police officers. I don't ever want to have to use those skills against another person but I sure hope I'm not put in a situation where I could have done something to protect myself or my family but was unable to due to some ridiculous law stemming from belief such as yours about cops and training and angry retaliating criminals.

There are many studies showing superior target identification and accuracy by civilians vs police. This arrival has a collection of several of those: http://www.ammoland.com/2013/06/civilians-are-safer-than-police/#axzz2rO2wvqz5

 

[copeje]

Just in case you forgot... Looks like it says people, not LEOs only.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Then hire a lawyer and fight it if you think it's an infringement on your rights. Having the right to own a weapon and determining where you can/can't carry are two different things.

The original post of mine was meant to answer the question of the original post. Personally, I could care less whether you agree or disagree with the answer. I won't lose sleep either way. The only piece of advice I can give you, if you don't like the current laws-do something to change them.

 

[copeje]

So the only crimes that are committed are in retaliation against police?

I'm not denying your right to protect yourself but you seem to be trying to limit mine. And yes, I have taken several training classes and can handle a weapon more proficiently than about 90% of police officers. I don't ever want to have to use those skills against another person but I sure hope I'm not put in a situation where I could have done something to protect myself or my family but was unable to due to some ridiculous law stemming from belief such as yours about cops and training and angry retaliating criminals.

There are many studies showing superior target identification and accuracy by civilians vs police. This arrival has a collection of several of those: http://www.ammoland.com/2013/06/civilians-are-safer-than-police/#axzz2rO2wvqz5

To answer your question: I think if that is what you got out of my posting than you are reaching for something to argue or debate. I am simply stating that more people LEO's are likely to contact could have previous negative experiences that might increase the opportunity for something to happen.

Other than that, I agree with what your saying. It all has to do with training and what situations you are in. However, like instead to another member, the post was meant to answer the original question, not to debate with my opionon.

Now you have to choose, if you feel so strongly about your right to carry in said place/building, don't do business with that entity. It's your right to do so.

 

[copeje]

@doctorjj

There are two parts of the graph in your link that stick out, Homicides and Sexual Assaults. Here is my opionon on both, again just an opionon not facts cause I don't have time to research now.

Homicides, the graph shows they took 100K civilians and LEO's. Wouldn't 100K LEO's typically have more shoot/not shoot scenarios than civilians anyway therefor raising the possibility of a homicide charge?

Sexual Assaults, I think is a matter of situations they are involved in, the people some get involved in and power ego trips some seem to have.

 

[doctorjj]

To answer your question: I think if that is what you got out of my posting than you are reaching for something to argue or debate. I am simply stating that more people LEO's are likely to contact could have previous negative experiences that might increase the opportunity for something to happen.

Other than that, I agree with what your saying. It all has to do with training and what situations you are in. However, like instead to another member, the post was meant to answer the original question, not to debate with my opionon.

Now you have to choose, if you feel so strongly about your right to carry in said place/building, don't do business with that entity. It's your right to do so.

Your argument, although you not have realized it, was oh but I've had to do some stuff to bad people who will be more likely to want to retaliate against me so I need a gun. That argument falls flat. I am constantly making choices about who I do business with and am always working to help refine our laws to better respect the rights of individuals.

 

[copeje]

I realize that, it is a valid argument for why Leo's should be allowed to carry. Your main argument is relating to civilians and not limiting their ability. I agree with that, if the training is there. However, we don't have the structure in place to do that. Something for you to work on to change?

 

[CODE_3]

If you are an LEO, you should already know the answer because it was one of the subjects taught in CLEET. However, I'll refer you to Title 70 and Title 21 for your answers.

What's the section number in title 70 ( Never mind I'm a dork, )

 

[Dave70968]

I don't think that the public understands the distinction when they see someone dressed in uniform and operating a city owned vehicle. They expect to make contact with a Tulsa Police Officer, not an off duty security contractor.

I don't see a qualitative difference in the Public Works guys using city owned back hoes to operate their own excavating business.

In fact, if an off-duty officer does something actionable while in uniform and under arms, it might create liability for the city even though he's off-duty. 42 U.S.C. 1983 creates liability for violation of civil rights "under color of law," where "under color of law" depends upon whether the person whose rights were violated reasonably believes the actor was cloaked with the authority of law. There are several factors involved in determining the reasonableness of that belief, but being armed and uniform are two big ones.

 

[cmhbob]

If you want to compare self defense shootings along side LEO shootings , I think your trying to compare apples to oranges. And again, unless you have been on both sides, you probably won't understand.

Let's ask Amadou Diallo what he thinks about LEO vs civilian self-defense shootings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo? :

How about Patrick Dorismond? Sir? :

Oscar Grant? :

Jean Charles de Menezes? :

Ousmane Zongo? :

The students at Jackson State College? :

Andrea Rebello? :

Renaldo Cuevas? :

Sgt. Tom Smith? :

Krystal Barrows? :

Aiyana Stanley-Jones? :

Marie Zienkewicz? :

Jonathan Ferrell?

Tarika Wilson?

Oh, and from Wikipedia, with citations: LEOSA does not prevent a venue from banning carry by LEO.

Although LEOSA preempts state and local laws, there are two notable exceptions: "the laws of any State that (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property" (such as a bars, private clubs, amusement parks, etc.), or "(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park" [1][9][10][11] Additionally, LEOSA does not override the federal Gun-Free School Zone Act (GFSZA) which prohibits carrying a firearm within 1,000 feet of elementary or secondary schools. Although the GFSZA authorizes on-duty law enforcement officers to carry firearms in such circumstances, off-duty and retired law enforcement officers are still restricted from doing so unless they have a firearms license issued from the state in which they reside and then it is only good for the state in which they reside.[12] Individuals must also obey any federal laws and federal agency policies that restrict the carrying of concealed firearms in certain federal buildings and lands, as well as federal regulations prohibiting the carriage of firearms on airplanes.[11]