Religious Topics and Questions

[benjamin-benjamin]

1. so nice to see this thread go 14 pages without getting locked!! great job
2. i really want to comment, because i LOVE discussing this stuff (actually preaching sunday and working on my lesson now) but having trouble figuring out exactly what is being discussed??
3. i will make a couple of comments

a. just because someone claims to be a christian does not mean they "properly" represent God. Remember the Pharisees (who claimed to be the "best" at being closest to God) were condemned worse than anyone. So don't spend too much time that debating about people that use Christianity for personal gain, money, pride, etc... because they exist and always will...
b. it is very tough to discuss some of these things in short snippets like this because like a puzzle they all tie in. Faith and works, belief and obedience, etc.. There are basic laws of theology that must be followed for the bible to make sense. the law of contradiction, never base the clear on the unclear, etc...
c. Free will vs. "no" free will... it is funny that this is being discussed because i have studied this heavily and i am do not have a "clear" answer. I do not believe in "predetermined election" nor irresistible grace, but (i didn't read everything in this thread) the points made for "no" free will are stronger than the points made for free will. Now with that being said i do believe in that it is a combination of free will and sovereignty of God, what i mean by that is
1. we know that God will not give us more than we can handle
2. If we truly seek him he will answer
3. all things work together for good to those who love God
4. God does not force anyone to follow him
so there has to be some sort of "meddling" (for lack of a better term) for the first 3 to be true, but also for the 4th to be true we must have some sort of free will. that may mean that in the same way that Jesus didn't do miracles for certain people (herod, pharisees), but did for other people, because he knew with the pharisees and herod it wouldn't do any good.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

This is exactly what the Pharisees taught. Salvation is by GRACE, through FAITH, and that is a gift of God. Even our faith is a gift from God.

actually the pharisees taught salvation by works, that is very clear.....hence the reason they condemned anyone that didn't follow their strict rules, because they equated by salvation through works... that being said faith without works is dead, not arguing that..

 

[gillman7]

actually the pharisees taught salvation by works, that is very clear.....hence the reason they condemned anyone that didn't follow their strict rules, because they equated by salvation through works... that being said faith without works is dead, not arguing that..

Yup, read the quote I referenced, he was talking about salvation was not through faith, but works, hence my comment of that is what the Pharisees taught. My comment should have had the word However, Salvation is by GRACE, through FAITH, etc. The person I quoted was abdicating work based salvation.

Also, if there is no such thing as an irresistable grace, then you have a sovereign creation, and a subjected creator. Either God is sovereign or he isn't, you can't have it both ways. I refuse to believe in an impotent God, standing pleading for mankind to come to him, and watching him walk away dejected. To me that is a warped view of God.

 

[farmerbyron]

Very interesting debate. I am of the same belief as maddskillz that we are all forgiven. It does not make sense that a loving god would condemn good people to hell just because they never heard his message or fell short of expectations.

One explanation why it is thought works are needed to make it to heaven is can you imagine a world where people were guaranteed heaven? One word, anarchy.

I do have one question that I have brought up in small groups at my church and still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer for. If everything is predetermined, then what good does prayer do? I mean if you get cancer, it is already determined whether you live or die, so what good is it to pray for recovery?

One thing I really struggle with is when kids fall ill with cancer and such. These are the most innocent among us and they carry a burden that seems inhumane. It seems to me that if god were truly just, murders and pedophiles would fall ill with terminal illnesses.

I know I'm not as well versed as many of you guys but these are just a few questions I have.

 

[Koshinn]

Millions of people have died through out history without ever hearing about jesus. Go back in time to when the bible was written, how many peoples on other parts of the world lived and died without ever hearing about jesus or the christian view on heaven and hell? When they died, did they go to hell? If so, why, they never had a chance to hear about gods salvation, loving as long as you hear and accept his word if not then off to hell with you. So thru no fault of thier own, they lived and died and are now burning in hell.

I know plenty of so called christians who will steal, lie and anything else they can get away with, they go to church every time the doors are open. They work beside you, in all walks of life. I know plenty of people who dont go to church, but are some of the most honest and trustworthy people you can meet, go figure.

Its all about choices, this thing we call life, and it aint easy. Life will beat you down, chew you up and spit you out then take a huge ass **** on you. Some people need religion to get them through it, others dont.

Is there a god, is there not a god, no one can really say for sure, with one exception, those who have already died, and they are not talking.

Take it with a grain of salt, live life the best you can, enjoy it, you only get one trip then thats it, no more.

I like this post a lot. I'd buy you a watered down beer if you were in Altus.

 

[MaddSkillz]

Okay here's a problem I'm seeing with folks and their problem with God granting faith to specific individuals. I think many then think that God is then condemning the rest to an eternity of torment. The problem with that is that Hell as we've been taught to believe in does not exist. Death is death. It's the absence of life. It's a state of unperception. The dead are "asleep." This is why Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping when he was really dead. The disciples didn't understand so Jesus then said, "He's dead." What is death? Ecclesiastes tells us.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

This is what "Hades" is. The most accurate translation of the Greek word "hades" is "Unseen" or "Unperceived." Those that have died are simply dead. They are "asleep." They're not being tormented in a place called hell and they're not in heaven either. They're dead.

Here Martin Zender explains it well.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

Also, if there is no such thing as an irresistable grace, then you have a sovereign creation, and a subjected creator. Either God is sovereign or he isn't, you can't have it both ways. I refuse to believe in an impotent God, standing pleading for mankind to come to him, and watching him walk away dejected. To me that is a warped view of God.

don't want to go off topic here, but that is way out of context... just because there is no such thing as irresistible grace, do NOT mean that God is not sovereign, that is like making the argument if God cannot create a rock so big he can't lift it then he is not all powerful...

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

i agree maddskillz IF God only grants grace to certain people you are right, but i don't believe that... remember the passage below is not a parable but told as a true story...
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[MaddSkillz]

Key words : so called

Narrow is the way

Again, that comment was directed towards old covenant Israel and the coming 1000 year Kingdom, not the rest of humanity and eternity.

Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

ahhh, ya'll are going to keep me up all night answering questions

addressing what about people that haven't heard of Jesus, the passage below says that there is a moral law that we are all governed by and God will judge those people by that moral law, but we understand from the bible (and the passage below) that you are held responsible for the knowledge you have, meaning you shouldn't be concerned with other people, but if you have the knowledge of the bible and Jesus that is the standard you will be held to..... in the same way that people that "teach" will be held to a higher standard than others....

Romans 2

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.