as stated in an earlier post, I fly Southwest only... and made an assumption that most would be simliar... obviously incorrectly... so definitely check your airline because it appears that what one airline requires another adamantly rejects....
as stated in an earlier post, I fly Southwest only... and made an assumption that most would be simliar... obviously incorrectly... so definitely check your airline because it appears that what one airline requires another adamantly rejects....
OK guys, I'm going to make this clear once and for all. If you persist in dispensing misinformation, I'll have the mods delete the incorrect information and lock the thread.
The firearm must be locked in a hard sided case, to which only you may have the key or combination. If the case is a stand-alone case, i.e., a long gun case, then the declaration form is placed inside the case. No markings may be applied to the exterior of the case denoting that a firearm is contained within. If the case is a smaller one placed inside a checked bag, the declaration is placed on top of and outside the locked hard sided case. As before, no markings may be applied to the exterior of the checked bag denoting that a firearm is contained within. The airline agent may not handle the firearm and they may not ask you to demonstrate that the firearm is unloaded. By signing the declaration form, you are certifying that the firearm is unloaded. Attempting to transport a loaded firearm in checked baggage is a violation of 49 C.F.R. § 1540.111(c) and the penalty for a 1st offense with no aggravating or mitigating factors is a civil penalty fine of $1,000-2,000, plus a criminal referral if applicable. Attempting to transport an undeclared or improperly packaged firearm in checked baggage is also a violation of 49 C.F.R. § 1540.111(c) and the penalty for a 1st offense with no aggravating or mitigating factors is a civil penalty fine of $500-1,000.
49 C.F.R. § 175.10(a)(8)states: Small arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in checked baggage only, if securely packed in boxes or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed. This paragraph does not apply to persons traveling under the provisions of 49 CFR 1544.219. (armed LEO’s) The ammunition limits as defined by the FAA are 11 pounds, but some airlines have more restrictive limits. Violations of part 175 are referred to the FAA for disposition. I can state for a fact that the FAA Dangerous Goods Inspector has the authority to recommend an order assessing civil penalty of up to $1,000 for violation of hazardous materials regulations pertaining to Part 121 air carrier operations for a 1st offense.
Now let’s talk practically. Some airline agents do not know the regulations correctly and neither do some TSA Transportation Security Officers. Some will have you place the declaration in the wrong place. Some will not allow you to have ammunition in a magazine in a magazine pouch, even though this is allowed. Some will attempt to mark your bag tag with an “F” or apply some other special designator to let others know there is a firearm inside. Some will tell you that your plastic flip top ammo boxes aren’t allowed because they weren’t packaged that way by a “manufacturer”. Whether you wish to educate them on their mistakes is a matter of how much time you have, how much headache it’s going to cause you if someone downstream stops your bag and how much aggravation you’re willing to endure.
I’ve personally had to correct airline and TSA employees, both on duty and when travelling on my own dime. Why? Because I have credentials that say I have regulatory authority as a Transportation Security Inspector over these matters. Because if a violation occurs, I’m the one who writes the case recommending an order assessing civil penalty against the violator. So, I can assure you that you may get someone telling you something different, but they’re wrong.
As for any problems you may have in the system, there are two quick ways to get someone who should at least know the right answer. If an airline agent refuses to do it correctly and it’s to the level that someone else will be looking at you for doing it wrong, simply ask to speak with a Ground Security Coordinator, or GSC. That will immediately let them know that you know more than they think you do, and in fact may know more than them. If it’s a TSA agent, ask to speak to a supervisor or manager. Either way, remain calm, speak rationally and respectfully, and you’ll get much farther in getting the problem solved than if you rant and rave about how messed up everything is.
I do hope this helps. If you’re flying out of Tulsa and have an issue, you can let me know and I’ll try to help get it corrected. In order to do that, I’ll need the date, time, your name, flight information, the name of the person you dealt with and where you were at the time. Without that information, my hands are tied.
The firearm must be locked in a hard sided case, to which only you may have the key or combination. If the case is a stand-alone case, i.e., a long gun case, then the declaration form is placed inside the case. No markings may be applied to the exterior of the case denoting that a firearm is contained within. If the case is a smaller one placed inside a checked bag, the declaration is placed on top of and outside the locked hard sided case. As before, no markings may be applied to the exterior of the checked bag denoting that a firearm is contained within. The airline agent may not handle the firearm and they may not ask you to demonstrate that the firearm is unloaded. By signing the declaration form, you are certifying that the firearm is unloaded. Attempting to transport a loaded firearm in checked baggage is a violation of 49 C.F.R. § 1540.111(c) and the penalty for a 1st offense with no aggravating or mitigating factors is a civil penalty fine of $1,000-2,000, plus a criminal referral if applicable. Attempting to transport an undeclared or improperly packaged firearm in checked baggage is also a violation of 49 C.F.R. § 1540.111(c) and the penalty for a 1st offense with no aggravating or mitigating factors is a civil penalty fine of $500-1,000.
49 C.F.R. § 175.10(a)(8)states: Small arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in checked baggage only, if securely packed in boxes or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed. This paragraph does not apply to persons traveling under the provisions of 49 CFR 1544.219. (armed LEO’s) The ammunition limits as defined by the FAA are 11 pounds, but some airlines have more restrictive limits. Violations of part 175 are referred to the FAA for disposition. I can state for a fact that the FAA Dangerous Goods Inspector has the authority to recommend an order assessing civil penalty of up to $1,000 for violation of hazardous materials regulations pertaining to Part 121 air carrier operations for a 1st offense.
Now let’s talk practically. Some airline agents do not know the regulations correctly and neither do some TSA Transportation Security Officers. Some will have you place the declaration in the wrong place. Some will not allow you to have ammunition in a magazine in a magazine pouch, even though this is allowed. Some will attempt to mark your bag tag with an “F” or apply some other special designator to let others know there is a firearm inside. Some will tell you that your plastic flip top ammo boxes aren’t allowed because they weren’t packaged that way by a “manufacturer”. Whether you wish to educate them on their mistakes is a matter of how much time you have, how much headache it’s going to cause you if someone downstream stops your bag and how much aggravation you’re willing to endure.
I’ve personally had to correct airline and TSA employees, both on duty and when travelling on my own dime. Why? Because I have credentials that say I have regulatory authority as a Transportation Security Inspector over these matters. Because if a violation occurs, I’m the one who writes the case recommending an order assessing civil penalty against the violator. So, I can assure you that you may get someone telling you something different, but they’re wrong.
As for any problems you may have in the system, there are two quick ways to get someone who should at least know the right answer. If an airline agent refuses to do it correctly and it’s to the level that someone else will be looking at you for doing it wrong, simply ask to speak with a Ground Security Coordinator, or GSC. That will immediately let them know that you know more than they think you do, and in fact may know more than them. If it’s a TSA agent, ask to speak to a supervisor or manager. Either way, remain calm, speak rationally and respectfully, and you’ll get much farther in getting the problem solved than if you rant and rave about how messed up everything is.
I do hope this helps. If you’re flying out of Tulsa and have an issue, you can let me know and I’ll try to help get it corrected. In order to do that, I’ll need the date, time, your name, flight information, the name of the person you dealt with and where you were at the time. Without that information, my hands are tied.
So based on what you have said, the published policies of at least two airlines posted are either wrong at worst, or incomplete at best as no distinction is made between a stand-alone case or otherwise. No mention either way can be found at the TSA web site that I can see, so a citation in print would be helpful to keep handy if you have one.
If there is so much policy confusion at the airports among airline personnel and TSA, then I don't know how in the world anyone could expect the general public to know what is correct.
If there is so much policy confusion at the airports among airline personnel and TSA, then I don't know how in the world anyone could expect the general public to know what is correct.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. This wouldn't be the first time I've run across a violation or misinterpretation by an air carrier at the corporate headquarters level (yes, I even inspect and regulate airlines at the HQ level). I apologize that I cannot give you a citation in print. The citation I have is in a security SOP that's not available for dissemination to the public. It's regulated as Sensitive Security Information under 49 C.F.R. §1520.7. Not even regular TSA employees involved in passenger and checked baggage screening have direct access to it. I can tell you that if the airline agent will do a search on their computer system, most of the carriers have the correct procedure available to the agent word for word within their reservation system. The agent cannot disclose this to a passenger though, so don't ask.
Before you ask me why the system is set up in such a nonsensical fashion, I'd like to refer you to the time honored phrase: "What did you expect, It's the government?"
So based on what I have read that IS available from the TSA, a locked hard-sided suitcase containing a properly declared firearm meets the requirements of the rules. There appears to be no requirement for a separate gun case inside of a locked hard-sided suitcase to begin with.
Or has this changed?
Or has this changed?
You are correct. The size of the case in relation to the firearm is irrelevant. If your gun is inside a Samsonite (or other brand) hard sided bag and the latches are locked, you're good to go.
Jerry, don't start confusing this thread with facts......
GTG knows his stuff.
^^^^This^^^^
I fly out of Tulsa once or twice every month, usually on American, and have never had a problem there. I have had only had issues twice at other airports - once with an airline agent, and the other a TSA officer.
The airline agent (Delta, Norfolk airport) told me that I could not transport ammunition at all. Even after showing her the printed airline and TSA regulations and showing that I was in compliance, she stated that I was wrong and it was illegal to have ammunition. Her supervisor was eventually called and he took a quick look at my case and told her everything was in order.
The TSA officer was at Reagan National. After scanning my bag, he requested to search my bag because it had firearms in it - which is why I was standing there with the airline rep while it was scanned. OK, whatever - gave the key to the lock and he opened it up and observed that yes there were firearms and properly packaged ammunition. He seemed fairly confused and just kept looking at the case and then to me, like he did not understand what to do next. Maybe it was because I had four pistols with me (I had taken a friend shooting for the first time and brought a variety for him to try out). Eventually his supervisor showed up and talked to me, apologized for the delay, and sent me on my way.
Both times I remained calm and polite - but knew the facts and stood firm. I always arrive with plenty of time just in case there is an issue, so I am not stressed about missing a flight.
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