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The Range
Rifle & Shotgun Discussion
12GA or M4/AR15
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<blockquote data-quote="KurtM" data-source="post: 860854" data-attributes="member: 6064"><p>AHHH and the education goes on. First off a duck or goose doesn't have much resistence to upset or expand a rifle round such as 308. Now .223 goes divergent much faster than 308 and IS explosive on small to medium size fowl, not so the 308, it just drills a nice .30 caliber hole right on through with very little expantion. I have ate several medium sized fowl to even large size (Turkey) that have been killed with a 308. this also includes Rabbits and Marmots. The meat distruction just isn't that much.</p><p></p><p>Let,s look at the affore mentioned 590 ( I like 590s by the way ). It has 9 rounds of buckshot in the tube 6 more in the side saddle and 4 slugs in the stock for a total of 19 rounds, of these 10 have to loaded one at a time, and only 4 of them are what we would call precision ammunition (slugs). We also need to have fore-warning as to what type of ammo we might need. It would be a rare shotgun that would hold Buckshot to any acceptable pattern past 35 yards, and as for slugs it would be even rarer to have a shotgun with the precision to hit a deer sized target at 150 yards. Now lets say you need all 19 rounds for what ever reason, the first 9 would be fairly fast, but the next ten would be VERY slow. Lets say we can load a round a second ( and we are now talking about a very RARE individual to say the least... for the average shooter it would be closer to 3-4 seconds a round). That is at least 10 seconds of loading not shooting. You also won't know you are out of ammo untill it goes click, or you count rounds ( once again a rare individual that can do that under stress)</p><p></p><p>Now we look at the 308, it has 20 rounds on board, all the ammunition is as effective as 308 is, from the muzzle out to say 300 yards ( yea you can shoot them a lot farther but we are talking about the average sghooter). If you need to reload it, a new magazine holds a full 20 rounds more and for the average shooter can be changed in 3-4 second. So our continued rate of fire is 20 rounds with a 4 second hiatus and then 20 more. In a "survival" situation I really doubt anyone in their right mind would be taking wing shots or running rabbit shots, too much chance of missing with your limited ammo supply, so that argument is pretty much a wash for the both.</p><p></p><p>Now for the best part, if your support hand or strong hand are injured so that you can't grasp and pump the functioning of the 590 becomes very dificult. The 308 can be held with one hand just like the shotgun, BUT it loads it'sself with each pull of the trigger.</p><p></p><p>Now before you all think I am anti shotgun, I teach shotgun classes all over the world to L.E. and civilians. I teach the combat shotgun classes for T.D.S.A. I am well versed in the abilities of the shotgun, and in my opinion they fall short in the all round department. Just so you can get an idea of the skill level I am talking about (when it comes to loading a shotugn) go to you tube, look up bear1142 and look at the shotgun reloading video of "Mr. Weakhand" This guy can load 8 shells in 6.15 seconds, and he recomends a 308. Just something to think on. KurtM</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KurtM, post: 860854, member: 6064"] AHHH and the education goes on. First off a duck or goose doesn't have much resistence to upset or expand a rifle round such as 308. Now .223 goes divergent much faster than 308 and IS explosive on small to medium size fowl, not so the 308, it just drills a nice .30 caliber hole right on through with very little expantion. I have ate several medium sized fowl to even large size (Turkey) that have been killed with a 308. this also includes Rabbits and Marmots. The meat distruction just isn't that much. Let,s look at the affore mentioned 590 ( I like 590s by the way ). It has 9 rounds of buckshot in the tube 6 more in the side saddle and 4 slugs in the stock for a total of 19 rounds, of these 10 have to loaded one at a time, and only 4 of them are what we would call precision ammunition (slugs). We also need to have fore-warning as to what type of ammo we might need. It would be a rare shotgun that would hold Buckshot to any acceptable pattern past 35 yards, and as for slugs it would be even rarer to have a shotgun with the precision to hit a deer sized target at 150 yards. Now lets say you need all 19 rounds for what ever reason, the first 9 would be fairly fast, but the next ten would be VERY slow. Lets say we can load a round a second ( and we are now talking about a very RARE individual to say the least... for the average shooter it would be closer to 3-4 seconds a round). That is at least 10 seconds of loading not shooting. You also won't know you are out of ammo untill it goes click, or you count rounds ( once again a rare individual that can do that under stress) Now we look at the 308, it has 20 rounds on board, all the ammunition is as effective as 308 is, from the muzzle out to say 300 yards ( yea you can shoot them a lot farther but we are talking about the average sghooter). If you need to reload it, a new magazine holds a full 20 rounds more and for the average shooter can be changed in 3-4 second. So our continued rate of fire is 20 rounds with a 4 second hiatus and then 20 more. In a "survival" situation I really doubt anyone in their right mind would be taking wing shots or running rabbit shots, too much chance of missing with your limited ammo supply, so that argument is pretty much a wash for the both. Now for the best part, if your support hand or strong hand are injured so that you can't grasp and pump the functioning of the 590 becomes very dificult. The 308 can be held with one hand just like the shotgun, BUT it loads it'sself with each pull of the trigger. Now before you all think I am anti shotgun, I teach shotgun classes all over the world to L.E. and civilians. I teach the combat shotgun classes for T.D.S.A. I am well versed in the abilities of the shotgun, and in my opinion they fall short in the all round department. Just so you can get an idea of the skill level I am talking about (when it comes to loading a shotugn) go to you tube, look up bear1142 and look at the shotgun reloading video of "Mr. Weakhand" This guy can load 8 shells in 6.15 seconds, and he recomends a 308. Just something to think on. KurtM [/QUOTE]
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