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Competition, Tactics & Training
Firearm Training
5 Clues that Training is Not Realistic
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<blockquote data-quote="Michael Brown" data-source="post: 20686" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>Kydex will hide just fine. It conceals as well as any other holster and it is extremely fast, thus its prominent use in competition shooting where the only concern is quick acquisition from the holster.</p><p></p><p>However, its quick acquisition from the holster should give you some idea of how fast it also comes out if your adversary gets to it first. IWB kydex is much less of a problem. If it comes out quick for you, it comes out quick for anybody. It also means that it comes out easily in a struggle even when nobody has their hand on it. The laws of physics can't be re-written.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what schools you've attended where handgun retention was part of the curriculum, but I will offer that the vast majority of schools that I've seen don't train it realistically on the local and national level. </p><p></p><p>The most well-known retention system is the Lindell system. Jim Lindell was the first to recognize the problem of handgun disarmament. Handgun disarmament as trained in the Lindell system is always done standing from what I term the "Zombie Grab" where the attacker reaches right away with one or both hands.</p><p></p><p>The problem is attempted gun disarms simply don't occur this way. I say so because I have been involved in several both in uniform and plainclothes as a police officer and have studied hundreds more.</p><p></p><p>Gun disarms almost always occur from the clinch or a grounded position. This means that both parties have hit the ground and probably very hard. The only OWB kydex holster I've seen come remotely close to satisfying the requirements of retention after a fall is the Sidearmor holster that has its loops integral to the holster, not the current version that can be interchanged with a paddle.</p><p></p><p>We have seen Blade-Tech, Uncle Mike's, Comp-Tac, Fobus, Safariland and other makes of kydex all fail to the degree that I cannot in good conscience recommend them for self-defense.</p><p></p><p>In fact, I will take credit for Safariland re-designing their Raptor system after trying to sell it to the Tulsa Police Department. The rep hung the holster and belt from a pull-up bar and then hung from it to demonstrate its durability.</p><p></p><p>The rangemaster then called me from the audience and asked me to give it a realistic test. The rep put the belt on and I ripped the holster from its backing in about 15 seconds of aggressive disarming as he tried to defend it.</p><p></p><p>So much for "Level 4 Retention".......</p><p></p><p>If you haven't seen your kydex holster fail in ten years, my guess is you haven't been training very hard with it. That means hard wrestling where you are picked up and deposited hard on the ground and continued to fight from there. It means being punched in the face and disoriented prior to a clinched gun grab or takedown.</p><p></p><p>Nobody, that I know of, is doing this type of training in this immediate area on a wide-scale basis and only a handful are doing it anywhere. If you have trained with someone who is, consider yourself fortunate.</p><p></p><p>However if you had, and I am not trying to be condescending or arrogant, but you probably would already have seen the answer firsthand.</p><p></p><p>Some very well-known trainers teach what they refer to as handgun retention in a very static manner in the Lindell format that they claim is effective. In fact I attended a class where a nationally known instructor and gun mag writer was pummeled and disarmed trying to use the Lindell system against another 180 pound officer who had wrestled in high school.</p><p></p><p>If your system only works against the mildly aggressive, it isn't worth much. It has to work against a large, strong, determined, resisting opponent. If it won't work against a college defensive lineman, you can't rely on it.</p><p></p><p>I offer that example since my first incident where a suspect attempted to take my gun was a former Dallas Cowboys defensive end here in Tulsa.</p><p></p><p>If you test your kydex in this type of environment where an aggressive opponent with minimal restrictions attacks you with full-power strikes, takedowns, and grappling and it doesn't fail, you can consider it good to go. </p><p></p><p>Until then, you're just guessing.</p><p></p><p>Michael Brown</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Michael Brown, post: 20686, member: 18"] Kydex will hide just fine. It conceals as well as any other holster and it is extremely fast, thus its prominent use in competition shooting where the only concern is quick acquisition from the holster. However, its quick acquisition from the holster should give you some idea of how fast it also comes out if your adversary gets to it first. IWB kydex is much less of a problem. If it comes out quick for you, it comes out quick for anybody. It also means that it comes out easily in a struggle even when nobody has their hand on it. The laws of physics can't be re-written. I'm not sure what schools you've attended where handgun retention was part of the curriculum, but I will offer that the vast majority of schools that I've seen don't train it realistically on the local and national level. The most well-known retention system is the Lindell system. Jim Lindell was the first to recognize the problem of handgun disarmament. Handgun disarmament as trained in the Lindell system is always done standing from what I term the "Zombie Grab" where the attacker reaches right away with one or both hands. The problem is attempted gun disarms simply don't occur this way. I say so because I have been involved in several both in uniform and plainclothes as a police officer and have studied hundreds more. Gun disarms almost always occur from the clinch or a grounded position. This means that both parties have hit the ground and probably very hard. The only OWB kydex holster I've seen come remotely close to satisfying the requirements of retention after a fall is the Sidearmor holster that has its loops integral to the holster, not the current version that can be interchanged with a paddle. We have seen Blade-Tech, Uncle Mike's, Comp-Tac, Fobus, Safariland and other makes of kydex all fail to the degree that I cannot in good conscience recommend them for self-defense. In fact, I will take credit for Safariland re-designing their Raptor system after trying to sell it to the Tulsa Police Department. The rep hung the holster and belt from a pull-up bar and then hung from it to demonstrate its durability. The rangemaster then called me from the audience and asked me to give it a realistic test. The rep put the belt on and I ripped the holster from its backing in about 15 seconds of aggressive disarming as he tried to defend it. So much for "Level 4 Retention"....... If you haven't seen your kydex holster fail in ten years, my guess is you haven't been training very hard with it. That means hard wrestling where you are picked up and deposited hard on the ground and continued to fight from there. It means being punched in the face and disoriented prior to a clinched gun grab or takedown. Nobody, that I know of, is doing this type of training in this immediate area on a wide-scale basis and only a handful are doing it anywhere. If you have trained with someone who is, consider yourself fortunate. However if you had, and I am not trying to be condescending or arrogant, but you probably would already have seen the answer firsthand. Some very well-known trainers teach what they refer to as handgun retention in a very static manner in the Lindell format that they claim is effective. In fact I attended a class where a nationally known instructor and gun mag writer was pummeled and disarmed trying to use the Lindell system against another 180 pound officer who had wrestled in high school. If your system only works against the mildly aggressive, it isn't worth much. It has to work against a large, strong, determined, resisting opponent. If it won't work against a college defensive lineman, you can't rely on it. I offer that example since my first incident where a suspect attempted to take my gun was a former Dallas Cowboys defensive end here in Tulsa. If you test your kydex in this type of environment where an aggressive opponent with minimal restrictions attacks you with full-power strikes, takedowns, and grappling and it doesn't fail, you can consider it good to go. Until then, you're just guessing. Michael Brown [/QUOTE]
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