Ammo tests through simulated pelvic girdle, upper abdomen and thigh

[aestus]

Another excellent video by Brass fetcher. Well worth the watch!

In this video, he simulates skin, bone and muscle and tests using 9mm, 45acp, and .223 in both JHP and FMJ. He also throws in 00 buckshot for comparison. In the test, he simulates the pelvic girdle, the upper thorax as if the target was turned sideways in a weaver stance, and finally the thigh.

Things learned from this simulation. Modern hollowpoint ammo in 9mm and 45acp are negligibly different in performance. 9mm and 45acp in FMJ are also equally crappy. .223 fragmenting/expanding ammo is consistently brutal. .223 fmj (m193) sucks balls unless it has time to yaw, at which point is extremely brutal. 00 buckshot is a consistent obliterator

 

[piston10]

Glad I have my 12 gauge!

 

[rebelracer79]

Cool video

 

[tRidiot]

Very nice testing. Thanks for posting!

I wanna see 12g slug thown in there, too!

 

[Brandi]

I found it strange that he says he's using an AR with a 1/12 rifling for his test considering it's not even relevant to today's 1/7, 1/8, 1/9 twist rifles. What I'd rather see is a comparison between non +P 9mm vs non +P .45acp. since most people I know don't run +P. I also believe that bullet diameter becomes less important as velocity increases which explains the results of these tests and why testing normal pressure ammo is more important. I'm betting there's a point where increased size/mass begins to make more difference as velocity drops. I also believe that larger bullets do perform better in cases of marginal hits where the energy released is much lower.

As for suggesting a shotgun as someones first home defense gun I say nope. Sure a shotgun is much more powerful but it's also a long gun which is a liability inside a structure due to the ease in which you can be disarmed or disabled moving through doorways and around corners even using the best methods known. It's also heavy, has very limited capacity, and much more difficult to reload. From average person with little to no experience to the most well trained LEO or soldier the handgun is always the best choice (while very short barrel carbines may also be good choices except they are illegal for most people).

It's pretty interesting to see these tests although I really would like to see someone actually use a stimulant human instead of designing their own. I know they are expensive though, I saw them used on a recent Mythbuster episode where they needed the most realistic stimulant possible. The reason why I say that is because the sheer number of people both LEO and military who contradict many of these tests leads me to believe there are just too many more factors involved when a bullet strikes an actual person than blocks of gelatin, regardless of how close they mimic static human tissue, can show. Maybe this guy can get a hold the full body sims or we could always ask for volunteers?

 

[briarcreekguy]

Why not use a dead pig. I know that they are often used in medical situations as a substitute for the human body. It would be pretty easy to find one in the weight range.

 

[turkeyrun]

"Sure a shotgun is much more powerful but it's also a long gun which is a liability inside a structure due to the ease in which you can be disarmed or disabled moving through doorways and around corners even using the best methods known. It's also heavy, has very limited capacity, and much more difficult to reload" Limited??????? My 1911 = 7 round mag + 1 up the pipe. 870 18" barrel = 8 in the tube + 1 in chamber. It IS longer and heavier. BOTH are by the bed. Home defense, middle of the night; 1st get shotgun, call 911, listen and wait. Don't need sight, across the bedroom that 1 5/8 oz of HV 7 1/2s will turn whatever it hits into hamburger. Short of a zombie attack, cannot foresee needing more than 9 rounds. If so, wife reloads while I use the .45ACP. When the time comes to leave the bedroom, agree, it will be the 1911, not the 870, filling my hand. Limited to only 1, I will take the 870 every time.

"Why not use a dead pig" Congress has a good supply to draw from.

 

[six shooter]

"Sure a shotgun is much more powerful but it's also a long gun which is a liability inside a structure due to the ease in which you can be disarmed or disabled moving through doorways and around corners even using the best methods known. It's also heavy, has very limited capacity, and much more difficult to reload" Limited??????? My 1911 = 7 round mag + 1 up the pipe. 870 18" barrel = 8 in the tube + 1 in chamber. It IS longer and heavier. BOTH are by the bed. Home defense, middle of the night; 1st get shotgun, call 911, listen and wait. Don't need sight, across the bedroom that 1 5/8 oz of HV 7 1/2s will turn whatever it hits into hamburger. Short of a zombie attack, cannot foresee needing more than 9 rounds. If so, wife reloads while I use the .45ACP. When the time comes to leave the bedroom, agree, it will be the 1911, not the 870, filling my hand. Limited to only 1, I will take the 870 every time.

"Why not use a dead pig" Congress has a good supply to draw from.

Smart man.

 

[aestus]

I found it strange that he says he's using an AR with a 1/12 rifling for his test considering it's not even relevant to today's 1/7, 1/8, 1/9 twist rifles. What I'd rather see is a comparison between non +P 9mm vs non +P .45acp. since most people I know don't run +P. I also believe that bullet diameter becomes less important as velocity increases which explains the results of these tests and why testing normal pressure ammo is more important. I'm betting there's a point where increased size/mass begins to make more difference as velocity drops. I also believe that larger bullets do perform better in cases of marginal hits where the energy released is much lower.

As for suggesting a shotgun as someones first home defense gun I say nope. Sure a shotgun is much more powerful but it's also a long gun which is a liability inside a structure due to the ease in which you can be disarmed or disabled moving through doorways and around corners even using the best methods known. It's also heavy, has very limited capacity, and much more difficult to reload. From average person with little to no experience to the most well trained LEO or soldier the handgun is always the best choice (while very short barrel carbines may also be good choices except they are illegal for most people).

It's pretty interesting to see these tests although I really would like to see someone actually use a stimulant human instead of designing their own. I know they are expensive though, I saw them used on a recent Mythbuster episode where they needed the most realistic stimulant possible. The reason why I say that is because the sheer number of people both LEO and military who contradict many of these tests leads me to believe there are just too many more factors involved when a bullet strikes an actual person than blocks of gelatin, regardless of how close they mimic static human tissue, can show. Maybe this guy can get a hold the full body sims or we could always ask for volunteers?

I believe the reason why he used the +P ammo is to keep parity with NATO rounds that the military uses. Nato 9mm is equivalent to 9mm +P. Basically just a way to show the difference of FMJ military rounds vs JHP's that non military has access to. Brass Fetcher is known for his scientific ballistic gel tests and does this professionally for government agencies. I assume the reason why he created a simulant body out of gel is because it's transparent. You are able to see temporary cavity and effects in real time with the camera. I've seen shots done with meat and even when things are pointed out, it's hard to tell what the effects of the round and tissue damage are. With transparent gel, it's obvious what's going on.

As for the 1:12 twist, I agree. I wish he had used 1:9 and 1:7. I would imagine that the only difference it really would have made is that it the 55grain m193 round would be less effective and probably wouldn't have much effect on the TSX round.

As for pistol vs shotgun, that's a whole other debate that's worthy of a separate thread

 

[dennishoddy]

I've always said the standard ballistic gel test with some denim in front is only an infomercial for bullet manufacturers.

The human body is nothing like ballistic gel. Between the bullet and vital areas, are buttons, shields, ink pens, ribs, zippers, etc.

Bullets hit those, and strange things begin to happen.

When it comes to seeing how a bullet performs, meat is not really a great method like you say.

If a bullet manufacturer wants to show what carnage a bullet can do, they need to film the autopsy of a big game hunter field dressing game.
Deer are the closest to human size from 100-300 lbs. They don't have jackets, zippers etc, so its a pure example how bullets will perform in different tissues.

Hair, skin, bones, and intestines.

Being fortunate to have a great deer hunting area, as well as helping others field dress theirs, I've seen a lot of results from pistol and rifle rounds.

Over a 36 year deer hunting career, I've shot many deer with a few factory loads, but the majority have been taken with my reloads.

Two bullet manufacturers stand out no matter what rifle caliber.(deer) Sierra, and Barnes.

I've shot noslers, hornady, etc, so on and so on. They all killed. None produced the intestinal carnage that the .308 Sierra HPBT, and Barnes TSX, orTTSX on elk sized game.

Barnes has to be the across the board winner IMHO with every bullet I've recovered retaining 100% of their original weight.

Pistol rounds? Shot deer with everything from .45ACP, .44 mag, and .45LC.
They all die, from hollow points or the ballistic tip rounds like Hornady leverevolution bullets.
I haven't seen a whole lot difference with pistol rounds.