This is this months nominee for "OSA-er's Say the Darndest Things".
If you win, we'll send you and your family down to Disneyland for a live taping where you might just win $10,000 !!
This is this months nominee for "OSA-er's Say the Darndest Things".
If you win, we'll send you and your family down to Disneyland for a live taping where you might just win $10,000 !!
I recommend a compact Glock, Springfield XD, or Smith and Wesson M&P. All can be found easily in 9mm. All are great platforms pending personal preference of look and feel. All are rock solid reliable and plenty accurate.
The G26 is a subcompact and smaller than you need to go IMO. I am 5'11" and 140lbs after dinner and I would never carry a sub-compact short of going jogging. IMO you are sacrificing too much and gaining very little if anything in concealability. For daily carry even in a summer wardrobe sub-compact is IMO not needed.
The G26 is a subcompact and smaller than you need to go IMO. I am 5'11" and 140lbs after dinner and I would never carry a sub-compact short of going jogging. IMO you are sacrificing too much and gaining very little if anything in concealability. For daily carry even in a summer wardrobe sub-compact is IMO not needed.
321, based on your first post, it is clear that you have already done some research, otherwise you wouldn't be looking at the PPS or the CW9. Good Job! You're on the right trail.
Quick answer: If single stack isn't necessary, go with a 2nd/3rd Gen Glock 19. If you absolutely need a single stack, go with the Walther PPS and the PPQ later for double stack, mid-size carry, OR otherwise go with the CW9. Buy used whenever you can. (except Gen4 Glocks.)
Longer answer - (and I apologize ahead of time for the rambling nature of this post) there are a couple of basic "new buyer" things that I would humbly advise right off the bat: (Note that I am not an instructor or anything - I just read what professional instructors say and regurgitate their wisdom. I'm doing good to get through a couple thousand rounds at the range a year in my present circumstance.)
1. Buy a 9mm. 9mm is an excellent choice. Thinking about the issue rationally gives us this answer. Effectiveness is about shot placement. The more training you get and the more you shoot, the better you will be at shot placement. Which caliber allows you to shoot more for the same cost? 9mm. Which caliber allows the most capacity? 9mm. Capacity and shot placement trumps .1" any day of the week. Short of living in a state that limits mag capacity to <11, 9mm is what you should look at for a CCW. Not to mention, modern day 9mm defense ammo is incredible. Be sure to get good 9mm defense ammo. I personally use and recommend Federal HST.
Some might argue, "well why do LEOs carry .40S&W or .357SIG if 9mm is so good?" LEOs are understandably concerned about barrier penetration (primarily auto glass), and these calibers offer better barrier penetration characteristics than 9mm defense rounds. While a civilian could conceivably encounter a situation where auto glass could be involved, it is far less likely to be encountered by a civilian than by an LEO, making these more expensive calibers less necessary or preferable for a civilian. I have yet to hear of a competitive shooter that has faster splits and better accuracy with a .40 or .45 than with 9mm. There just aren't any convincing arguments for calibers larger than 9mm if your primary goal is civilian protection against human predators. (Bear country would obviously require more than a 9mm.)
2. Buy one gun and stick with it and train with it if you can. You'll want to buy more. Don't. I've spent a lot of money trying to find that "best" gun. The second handgun in a long line of handguns I bought was a 2nd Gen Glock 19. I should have stopped there. I would have saved a lot of money, and that money would have provided valuable training experiences. This is a "fear the man with one gun" sort of thing. Also, remember to follow the "two is one, and one is none" philosophy. Once you get your first ccw, start saving to buy and set up a second exact copy of it. Also, once you decide on a carry gun and have trained on it, just carry that gun. Don't fall into this strange habit prevalent among some of having a "carry rotation." Train with what you carry and carry with what you train. That doesn't mean you can't take other guns to the range, but it doesn't make sense to do anything but stack every advantage you can in your favor. 100% proficiency with your CCW is the biggest advantage you can have in the rare event when you need your sidearm. You will be better skilled by learning your draw on one platform than on 5 different ones.
3. Forget about looks. Ultimately, a sidearm is nothing more than a tool. Its purpose IS NOT to look pretty, be classy, or express your personality. Its purpose IS to be effectively deployed and reliably used in any environment and situation that you may find yourself in to save you from a life threatening encounter from predators (mainly human). The desired characteristics for any tool are roughly the same. It has to be durable, reliable, and effective. AND it has to be on hand. There is nothing worse than owning a tool and not having it with you. Everyone is trying to find that personal balance for the largest gun that you'll always have on hand. Some decide on a full size, while others decide on subcompact. Some double stack, others single. You have to realistically examine your behavior and find the size of handgun that you will be willing to carry on your person all the time.
4. Look at your choices as objectively as possible. There is a balance between preference and the right tool for the job. A framing hammer is meant for framing. You shouldn't be using it to do delicate work any more than you should be trying to use a Seecamp for primary carry. However, there may be certain preferences between various framing hammers. In the conceal carry role, a 9mm mid to compact auto is the way to go. While I prefer a full-size double-stack like a Glock 17 and M&P9, the single stack is just more concealable for all day/everyday carry. "The gun you always have with you is better than the gun you don't." My guess is that you'll likely end up with a compact and full size version of the same platform anyways. (M&P9c & M&P9 or G26 & G17 or PPS & PPQ etc.) I would go with the smaller one first. That way you'll start off with always having one on hand. Then follow it with an exact copy-("Two is one, and one is none.") Then move to the larger size for winter and other occasions when clothing can allow for larger.
5. I think one of the biggest mistakes that new gun owners/shoppers do is obsess over how a gun feels in their hand at the gun shop. A gun doesn't need to be comfortable. In fact, once you get effective stippling on the grip to increase traction, it will probably feel uncomfortable. The only thing about the "feel" of a gun that matters is whether you can 1) maintain a firm grip when drawing and using it, 2) manipulate the firearm effectively, and 3) be able to place the pad of your finger on the face of the trigger.
Can you reliably gain a firm grip when drawing time and time again? (Mid-size or full-size handguns gain a slight edge over compacts in this area.)
Can you reach the mag release without releasing your grip on the firearm? (The more often you have to release your grip, the more often there is a chance that you lose control of your gun.)
Can the pad of your trigger finger reach the face of the trigger and pull the trigger straight back? (If you can't get the proper finger position on the trigger, why consider the gun.)
Quick answer: If single stack isn't necessary, go with a 2nd/3rd Gen Glock 19. If you absolutely need a single stack, go with the Walther PPS and the PPQ later for double stack, mid-size carry, OR otherwise go with the CW9. Buy used whenever you can. (except Gen4 Glocks.)
Longer answer - (and I apologize ahead of time for the rambling nature of this post) there are a couple of basic "new buyer" things that I would humbly advise right off the bat: (Note that I am not an instructor or anything - I just read what professional instructors say and regurgitate their wisdom. I'm doing good to get through a couple thousand rounds at the range a year in my present circumstance.)
1. Buy a 9mm. 9mm is an excellent choice. Thinking about the issue rationally gives us this answer. Effectiveness is about shot placement. The more training you get and the more you shoot, the better you will be at shot placement. Which caliber allows you to shoot more for the same cost? 9mm. Which caliber allows the most capacity? 9mm. Capacity and shot placement trumps .1" any day of the week. Short of living in a state that limits mag capacity to <11, 9mm is what you should look at for a CCW. Not to mention, modern day 9mm defense ammo is incredible. Be sure to get good 9mm defense ammo. I personally use and recommend Federal HST.
Some might argue, "well why do LEOs carry .40S&W or .357SIG if 9mm is so good?" LEOs are understandably concerned about barrier penetration (primarily auto glass), and these calibers offer better barrier penetration characteristics than 9mm defense rounds. While a civilian could conceivably encounter a situation where auto glass could be involved, it is far less likely to be encountered by a civilian than by an LEO, making these more expensive calibers less necessary or preferable for a civilian. I have yet to hear of a competitive shooter that has faster splits and better accuracy with a .40 or .45 than with 9mm. There just aren't any convincing arguments for calibers larger than 9mm if your primary goal is civilian protection against human predators. (Bear country would obviously require more than a 9mm.)
2. Buy one gun and stick with it and train with it if you can. You'll want to buy more. Don't. I've spent a lot of money trying to find that "best" gun. The second handgun in a long line of handguns I bought was a 2nd Gen Glock 19. I should have stopped there. I would have saved a lot of money, and that money would have provided valuable training experiences. This is a "fear the man with one gun" sort of thing. Also, remember to follow the "two is one, and one is none" philosophy. Once you get your first ccw, start saving to buy and set up a second exact copy of it. Also, once you decide on a carry gun and have trained on it, just carry that gun. Don't fall into this strange habit prevalent among some of having a "carry rotation." Train with what you carry and carry with what you train. That doesn't mean you can't take other guns to the range, but it doesn't make sense to do anything but stack every advantage you can in your favor. 100% proficiency with your CCW is the biggest advantage you can have in the rare event when you need your sidearm. You will be better skilled by learning your draw on one platform than on 5 different ones.
3. Forget about looks. Ultimately, a sidearm is nothing more than a tool. Its purpose IS NOT to look pretty, be classy, or express your personality. Its purpose IS to be effectively deployed and reliably used in any environment and situation that you may find yourself in to save you from a life threatening encounter from predators (mainly human). The desired characteristics for any tool are roughly the same. It has to be durable, reliable, and effective. AND it has to be on hand. There is nothing worse than owning a tool and not having it with you. Everyone is trying to find that personal balance for the largest gun that you'll always have on hand. Some decide on a full size, while others decide on subcompact. Some double stack, others single. You have to realistically examine your behavior and find the size of handgun that you will be willing to carry on your person all the time.
4. Look at your choices as objectively as possible. There is a balance between preference and the right tool for the job. A framing hammer is meant for framing. You shouldn't be using it to do delicate work any more than you should be trying to use a Seecamp for primary carry. However, there may be certain preferences between various framing hammers. In the conceal carry role, a 9mm mid to compact auto is the way to go. While I prefer a full-size double-stack like a Glock 17 and M&P9, the single stack is just more concealable for all day/everyday carry. "The gun you always have with you is better than the gun you don't." My guess is that you'll likely end up with a compact and full size version of the same platform anyways. (M&P9c & M&P9 or G26 & G17 or PPS & PPQ etc.) I would go with the smaller one first. That way you'll start off with always having one on hand. Then follow it with an exact copy-("Two is one, and one is none.") Then move to the larger size for winter and other occasions when clothing can allow for larger.
5. I think one of the biggest mistakes that new gun owners/shoppers do is obsess over how a gun feels in their hand at the gun shop. A gun doesn't need to be comfortable. In fact, once you get effective stippling on the grip to increase traction, it will probably feel uncomfortable. The only thing about the "feel" of a gun that matters is whether you can 1) maintain a firm grip when drawing and using it, 2) manipulate the firearm effectively, and 3) be able to place the pad of your finger on the face of the trigger.
Can you reliably gain a firm grip when drawing time and time again? (Mid-size or full-size handguns gain a slight edge over compacts in this area.)
Can you reach the mag release without releasing your grip on the firearm? (The more often you have to release your grip, the more often there is a chance that you lose control of your gun.)
Can the pad of your trigger finger reach the face of the trigger and pull the trigger straight back? (If you can't get the proper finger position on the trigger, why consider the gun.)
6. Whether you can conceal a handgun has more overall to do with the belt/holster/shirt-color you use than the size of the gun. Get a good carry belt. Don't skimp on the belt. Also, get a good holster. Even more than the belt, a good holster will make you forget you're even carrying your sidearm. I prefer kydex holsters and am particularly partial to Raven Concealment's Phantom holster. There are many holsters out there to choose from, ranging from full kydex like the CTAC, RCS Phantom, and CCC Looper, to hybrids like the MTAC or Supertuck, to full leather like Del Fatti or Milt Sparks' VM2. Like I said, I personally prefer the lightweight and thinness of kydex, especially the RCS Phantom. Finally, dark colored and dark print shirts will go a long way in helping to conceal a handgun.
I'm 6'4" and 200lbs, and I used to decently conceal carry a G17 with a CCC Looper on a Beltman belt under a black polo. (but it slightly looked like I had a growth on my waist if you actually look for it.) I and any other observant person who conceal carries can recognize a waist bulge, which you'll get with any double stack unless you wear an oversized button up shirt or equivalent. If you are okay with dressing around your sidearm, then go with a full size. If you need to wear tucked in button up shirts, etc., a smaller single stack may be what you want.
If I could conceal carry a G17 with MY choice of clothing 24/7, I would do it. I can't. I am also not willing to wear baggy, oversized shirts everywhere. To resolve this problem, I bought the Kahr PM9 and Walther PPS for those occasions when I needed a smaller CCW. Both are great firearms. I eventually decided on keeping the PPS because it is closer to a Glock trigger, which is my preference. Upon using the PPS however, I have found some difficulties in switching back from the PPS's European mag release back to the American push button style. It has given me a slight amount of concern. I don't have any difficulty switching back the other way, so I am comfortable enough to keep it, but I think the PPS/PPQ would be a better system than say a PPS as primary and a G19 as intermittent replacement. For this reason, I would say that if you want to later get the PPQ, the PPS is hands down the CCW to buy right now. If you want to primarily carry a G19, the PPS may cause you to develop some muscle memory habits that could be against your interests should you later switch between it and a G19/17.
7. Once you get your handgun, don't worry about wasting time and money on expensive trigger modifications. I used to be a huge advocate for modifying Glock triggers and would argue with the guys who created BS arguments of impending lawsuits etc. The simple truth of the matter is that a $150 trigger won't make you a better shot. There are simple enough things that you can do for under $20-30 that can improve a trigger, but is only for shooter preference. I was just as accurate with a gritty, untouched stock trigger in my 2nd Gen G19 as I was with a $150 Glockworx Fulcrum trigger in a 3rd gen G19. Don't waste your time on extensive modifications. Focus your energy on learning sight picture and trigger control.
8. Buy good sights. My accuracy is more affected by the sights I have on a handgun than anything else. The value and quality of a good sight picture is less noticeable when you are just standing at a range slowly shooting a target with one eye closed. The advantage of good sights are better realized when you are trying to shoot at speed, eyes open, and shift from target to target. Aftermarket sights are always my first post-firearm expenditure. I absolutely love Ameriglo's new i-Dot sights for Glocks and M&Ps. I have been a Warren Tactical fan for years and still highly recommend them, as well as 10-8 sights, but my green front i-Dot sight is by far the easiest and fastest front sight I've ever used.
My apologies for the lack of brevity. I typed a lot more than I intended. Honestly, I wish that someone would have sat me down when I was first getting into handguns and convinced me to buy only a Glock 19, ignore all the rest, and take training classes and continue to just, train, train, train. I would be much better off both in proficiency and financially. So that's my learned lesson to you. Take it for what it is worth.
I'm 6'4" and 200lbs, and I used to decently conceal carry a G17 with a CCC Looper on a Beltman belt under a black polo. (but it slightly looked like I had a growth on my waist if you actually look for it.) I and any other observant person who conceal carries can recognize a waist bulge, which you'll get with any double stack unless you wear an oversized button up shirt or equivalent. If you are okay with dressing around your sidearm, then go with a full size. If you need to wear tucked in button up shirts, etc., a smaller single stack may be what you want.
If I could conceal carry a G17 with MY choice of clothing 24/7, I would do it. I can't. I am also not willing to wear baggy, oversized shirts everywhere. To resolve this problem, I bought the Kahr PM9 and Walther PPS for those occasions when I needed a smaller CCW. Both are great firearms. I eventually decided on keeping the PPS because it is closer to a Glock trigger, which is my preference. Upon using the PPS however, I have found some difficulties in switching back from the PPS's European mag release back to the American push button style. It has given me a slight amount of concern. I don't have any difficulty switching back the other way, so I am comfortable enough to keep it, but I think the PPS/PPQ would be a better system than say a PPS as primary and a G19 as intermittent replacement. For this reason, I would say that if you want to later get the PPQ, the PPS is hands down the CCW to buy right now. If you want to primarily carry a G19, the PPS may cause you to develop some muscle memory habits that could be against your interests should you later switch between it and a G19/17.
7. Once you get your handgun, don't worry about wasting time and money on expensive trigger modifications. I used to be a huge advocate for modifying Glock triggers and would argue with the guys who created BS arguments of impending lawsuits etc. The simple truth of the matter is that a $150 trigger won't make you a better shot. There are simple enough things that you can do for under $20-30 that can improve a trigger, but is only for shooter preference. I was just as accurate with a gritty, untouched stock trigger in my 2nd Gen G19 as I was with a $150 Glockworx Fulcrum trigger in a 3rd gen G19. Don't waste your time on extensive modifications. Focus your energy on learning sight picture and trigger control.
8. Buy good sights. My accuracy is more affected by the sights I have on a handgun than anything else. The value and quality of a good sight picture is less noticeable when you are just standing at a range slowly shooting a target with one eye closed. The advantage of good sights are better realized when you are trying to shoot at speed, eyes open, and shift from target to target. Aftermarket sights are always my first post-firearm expenditure. I absolutely love Ameriglo's new i-Dot sights for Glocks and M&Ps. I have been a Warren Tactical fan for years and still highly recommend them, as well as 10-8 sights, but my green front i-Dot sight is by far the easiest and fastest front sight I've ever used.
My apologies for the lack of brevity. I typed a lot more than I intended. Honestly, I wish that someone would have sat me down when I was first getting into handguns and convinced me to buy only a Glock 19, ignore all the rest, and take training classes and continue to just, train, train, train. I would be much better off both in proficiency and financially. So that's my learned lesson to you. Take it for what it is worth.
Hiding a gun is not that difficult with the right belt/holster/clothing combo so that should not be the first consideration.
There is nothing wrong with a 9mm, so if that is where you want to start I would suggest you get the biggest, longest sight radius pistol that fits your hand. The XDm, M&P, or Glock (Gen 4) would be leading candidates as they have interchangeable backstraps and can be adjusted to fit even very small hands. As a new handgun shooter, I also suggest you get some professional training. Learning the fundamentals of handgun shooting is not difficult, mastering them takes a lot of time and practice. Trying to become a proficient handgunner without these basics will seriously hamper your learning curve.
Short sight radius, crummy sights, tiny grips, ultra lightweight, and excessive recoil for the power generated make the smaller "pocket" guns difficult to shoot and a very poor choice for beginners.
There is nothing wrong with a 9mm, so if that is where you want to start I would suggest you get the biggest, longest sight radius pistol that fits your hand. The XDm, M&P, or Glock (Gen 4) would be leading candidates as they have interchangeable backstraps and can be adjusted to fit even very small hands. As a new handgun shooter, I also suggest you get some professional training. Learning the fundamentals of handgun shooting is not difficult, mastering them takes a lot of time and practice. Trying to become a proficient handgunner without these basics will seriously hamper your learning curve.
Short sight radius, crummy sights, tiny grips, ultra lightweight, and excessive recoil for the power generated make the smaller "pocket" guns difficult to shoot and a very poor choice for beginners.
really should try the ruger sr9c,great and accurate small gun,and it looks great too,easy to conceal, just my 2 cents worth
I'd see how an M&P 9c feels in your hand.
3
321sage
Guest
Very nice points overall IMO thanks. As far as 5. goes i know that the gun I get might not be that comfy but at this point the only gun I have fired (when actually thinking about what I want for a CCW) is the glock 19 and glock 26. Both are incredibly baulky and very uncomfortable. Although I am a good shot with them, in no way can I grip it enough to feel comfortable that I could draw the gun over and over without dropping it at least once (I normally have to change my grip on the glock when holding it and when I actually intent to shoot it. This is the main reason I have been looking into compacts and subcompacts since from what I have found they have smaller grips (atleast when width is concerned). I know it would be pointless to have a comfy gun that I can't shoot well but I would at least like to it be comfy enough that I don't feel I will drop it if I don't have it grasped with two hands as I do with the glocks.
edit: the training thing is a no bullxhit thing too
T
TAPRACKFIRE
Guest
I have a Kahr 9mm and love it.
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