How do you train?

[gerhard1]

Like Ricco, that's your prerogative and I am not judging you for it. It's a free country after all and you have a right to decide what's best for you. I however, could never live with myself if someone (school kids, at risk adult or whoever) perished because of my inaction.

The problem with what I perceive your approach to be is that when you intervene, you might not know what the situation is and you are potentially putting an innocent party at risk if you employ force to help someone.

In your zeal to help, you might be doing more harm than good. So, turning your lofty position on its' side, I could not live with myself if I intervene on behalf of the wrong party and someone who is innocent gets harmed because of what I did.

Your heart may be in the right place, but you might want to re-think your stance on intervention.

 

[Gadsden]

The problem with what I perceive your approach to be is that when you intervene, you might not know what the situation is and you are potentially putting an innocent party at risk if you employ force to help someone.

In your zeal to help, you might be doing more harm than good. So, turning your lofty position on its' side, I could not live with myself if I intervene on behalf of the wrong party and someone who is innocent gets harmed because of what I did.

Your heart may be in the right place, but you might want to re-think your stance on intervention.

Besides the fact that I was a Crisis Intervention Officer I spent the better part of my lifetime arriving on a scene, evaluating a variety of different, very tense, situations and then determining how to react, I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on it. But I appreciate your concern.

 

[gerhard1]

Besides the fact that I was a Crisis Intervention Officer I spent the better part of my lifetime arriving on a scene, evaluating a variety of different, very tense, situations and then determining how to react, I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on it. But I appreciate your concern.

I see. Keep in mind however that with your training and vast experience in the field that the great majority of us don't have, your approach may be different from people without your advantages.

For this reason, I'd think that you might a little more forgiving of those without the training, agency backup, and insurance if they don't wish to assume the civil liability if they make a mistake and the wrong person gets hurt.

Look, I'm not saying that I would never intervene, only that I'd be very selective of those cases where I do.

 

[Gadsden]

I see. Keep in mind however that with your training and vast experience in the field that the great majority of us don't have, your approach may be different from people without your advantages.

For this reason, I'd think that you might a little more forgiving of those without the training, agency backup, and insurance if they don't wish to assume the civil liability if they make a mistake and the wrong person gets hurt.

Look, I'm not saying that I would never intervene, only that I'd be very selective of those cases where I do.

I am forgiving which is why I said I'm not judging anyone and you have a right to determine what's best for you. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

Look I don't mean to imply that everyone can and should intervene in a bad situation, that is a decision every individual has to make for themselves. I also realize that not everyone has my experience and that makes a difference in their decision making process. Having said that I've seen people who, when confronted with a situation, react in ways they never believed they would. One of those people, most likely, saved a young woman's life. My point is before he was forced into making a decision on what to do he never thought he'd react the way he did. Sometimes it's just spontaneous and your gut tells you what to do.

EDIT: Just so we are clear I do have the experience however, I am retired so I no longer have insurance through my employer or agency backup just a radio call away. In other words if I intervene in a situation (which would be highly unlikely since I stick pretty close to home these days) I'm pretty much on my own.

 

[Timmy59]

Training this morning would be eye training as smacking white steel plates against a snow covered ground would be quite the challenge for the eyeballs. 16 degrees, feels like 0 with blowing snow, an opportunity to train today in harsh conditions. Not many years ago I'd be giving it a go, but not today.

 

[gerhard1]

I am forgiving which is why I said I'm not judging anyone and you have a right to determine what's best for you. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

Look I don't mean to imply that everyone can and should intervene in a bad situation, that is a decision every individual has to make for themselves. I also realize that not everyone has my experience and that makes a difference in their decision making process. Having said that I've seen people who, when confronted with a situation, react in ways they never believed they would. One of those people, most likely, saved a young woman's life. My point is before he was forced into making a decision on what to do he never thought he'd react the way he did. Sometimes it's just spontaneous and your gut tells you what to do.

Okay, good; I think we're pissing in the same latrine now.

On to the subject of this thread--how we train.

When I'm not function-firing or testing a new (to me) handgun, I try to incorporate movement when I shoot. Starting in various positions relative to the target, that is, facing it, on either side or with the target to my back, I draw, turn around and engage, Sometimes, I move diagonally, other times side-to-side, rarely back. I shoot while I move. Most of the time, I don't use the sights on the gun, usually a revolver, as shooting is at very close range.

Since I have serious balance issues, I use a cane when I walk, and I incorporate it into my practice routines. I took Grant Cunningham's Threat Centered Revolver class in November 2019 in Phoenix, and he suggested that I use the cane to perhaps distract the BG by dropping it, etc. On another issue, when I told him about my S&W 10mm wheel gun, he suggested that as a carry gun. Circumstances have not permitted this as my wife has had various health issues and I broke my arm, and these have prevented me from doing much shooting for the past couple of years. That may be changing, though, as she is recovering and I have more free time.

 

[Gadsden]

I think we're pissing in the same latrine now.

LOL, it's been a long time since I heard that one. Thanks for the memories and the laugh!

Prayers that your wife recovers soon and completely also that you arm heals and doesn't give you any issues.

 

[gerhard1]

LOL, it's been a long time since I heard that one. Thanks for the memories and the laugh!

Prayers that your wife recovers soon and completely also that you arm heals and doesn't give you any issues.

You're too kind. Thank you.

 

[gerhard1]

That one fact has always made me mad. Every range has that stupid rule of no drawing from the holster. Now I know it is for liability purposes because the average Joe Jack Citizen can just walk in off the street with ID and money and start shooting. Ranges cannot afford a full time safety officer and therefore put the onus back on the citizen for range safety. The fact remains the holster, is a big part of carrying a gun whether concealed or not. The quality of the holster, the positioning, the retention mechanism, frequency of use, (familiarity) is very necessary to good training.

Here is a thread from a while back addressing this very issue.

https://www.okshooters.com/threads/ranges-and-self-defense-skills.277025/

 

[ricco]

This might be a long post, dunno, we will see.

I thought posting about the "why" was important so I posted that first but then we got sidetracked and well........

Let's examine my "why" a little more before moving on to my "how".

We should decide beforehand, as much as possible, what we will involve ourselves in, I say as much as possible because life can throw us curve balls. Me, personally, I will only draw a pistol for two reasons. If a pistol or other deadly weapon is being pointed at me and is close enough to kill me or, in the unlikely event, I am in a place that is being robbed and the bad guys want to move me into a back room or a vehicle. In general I will always be "reactive". Going to a fight, such as involving yourself in anothers fight, is "proactive". "Reactive" would be walking to your car and having a bad guy step out of the shadows and put a pistol in your face. Given my age and lifestyle my reasons for self defense are very limited, robbery and carjacking are really my only concern. Both are close up, surprising and most likely chaotic, no one get's robbed or carjacked from across the parking lot. Given the robbery and carjacking problem my training and practice is a reflection of those. Average human reaction time is .25 second, meaning, if the bad guy has pistol pointed at you and his finger is on the trigger and he see's you draw he will fire in .25 second, unless you have a sub .25 second draw and shot you have a problem. To have a potentially successful defense you will need to do other things. This is why I say I will always be behind the curve.

Moving on the "how"

Outside the home.

John Corriea of "Active Self Protection" as of 2019 has watched 20,000+ gunfights, in those 20,000 gunfights there are some things that repeat. Repeatable is what we looking for, one off's and war stories have very little actual value. One of the things that Corriea has gleaned is the value of distraction. As a thought exercise, imagine you are a bad guy pointing a pistol at your victim and your victim moves his head slightly, looks over your non gun side shoulder and smiles, what are you likely to do? You will turn your head to see what is coming up behind you won't you. That is distraction and you can take advantage of that distraction. Corriea estimates that if you can see your attackers ear, meaning for whatever the reason the bad guy turns his head and takes his eye's off you, you have about 1.25 seconds to do something. My something is to practice moving enough to take me off the bad guys muzzle, drawing and firing in less than 1.25 seconds. Moving is very important, if the bad guy doesn't turn his head enough or has better than average peripheral vision and you are still on his muzzle you're kinda screwed. How and where you move is important. I don't do lateral movement, forward diagonal movement is better. Forward diagonal movement is quicker, the same length of a diagonal step moves you farther off the bad guys muzzle than a lateral step and balance is better.

More later.