and in national news.......... Alameda California Emergency response FAIL

[Rob72]

say "we can be sued or we can damage equipment or we can fail,

...or I can never work in my profession again (in the US), or I can lose my home because agency malpractice won't cover me, we might even get some time in jail "if we fail", but that's ok because I really hate my wife and kids.

See, if you lose your license/cert in one state for gross disregard of protocol/policy/however your state phrases it, you won't get a new license (legally) elsewhere. You've become a liability. I like 7-11 clerks. I'm glad we have them. I don't want to have to make that my career.

I know where you're coming from. I believe in the sanctity of life. I've spent a whoooole lotta time working with EDPs of a bunch of different flavors.

There has been more info: now apparently the Dept is going to allow untrained responders to respond. That will continue until a few of them die. It will be rescinded again. At least there was only one dead this time around.

 

[fishfurlife]

So as a side note, if a guy was able to get a boat to this person, do you all really think he would have declined a ride back to shore.

Somebody that was truly committed to killing themselves would have gone about it a little quicker don't you think???

I am not arguing that it was a bad idea to swim out to him, but holy crap. An hour, I bet there were at least 75 cell phones on the beach, along with radios that were direct lines to other emergency personnel. Just because somebody might be suicidal doesn't mean you can't try to work with them.

 

[Glocktogo]

You are obviously very passionate about saving lives. And I respect and understand it.
What I don't understand what do you expect untrained people to do?
Ok, you strip to your tidy-whiteys, walk 100 yards and then what - pretend to be a suicide negotiator while swimming?
Ok, you got yourself a boat - row to the guy - then what? Hit him upside the head with an ore? Taze him? Harpoon? Lasso?

I understand a chopper rescue, I understand water rescue craft with ropes and floating jackets.

On the other hand - why do you think you got a high horse to comment on cops and firemen "balls" and "hearts"?

I certainly wouldn't stand there for an hour and watch the guy drown! I swim like a rock, but I can certainly handle a boat and I'd certainly go find one. I'd go find a boat and someone who could drive one. I'd find a rope, encourage others to form a chain, talk to the guy to see if he could be convinced to abandon his plan. I wouldn't walk out there and try to subdue him, but I wouldn't just stand there. I'd never just stand there. I detest lookie-loos that do nothing but stand around and bemoan the horribleness as they take pictures and video.

My high horse comes from being a reserve law enforcement officer. I've taken numerous oaths in my career and I'm sworn today. I also consider myself to be someone who gives a damn.

Suicide is really the issue.

The 10th Circuit Court of Appeals (of which Oklahoma is a part) in Denver has stated in legal opinion that police and fire departments have no obligation to prevent "private violence" aka suicide.

They have gone so far as to say that if police/fire attempt to intervene, they become responsible for the outcome.

I'm not sure how you expect someone to risk their life to help someone who doesn't want the help and tell them that they're now responsible for another person's actions.

It has completely changed how we (TPD) respond to suicidal persons calls and you can expect this story to repeat itself in the future.

Understood, but the 10th can make mistakes. They're human even if they consider themselves above that condition. I wonder if any of them have ever watched one of their loved ones attempting to commit suicide, while "first responders" stood by and watched? Does this not reek of condoning suicide? How can anyone, sworn or not, be held responsible for what is in the mind of another? If you fail in preventing a suicide, how is that any different than standing by and observing it while it happens? How is the outcome any different?

At what point does a community (or the state or the nation) determine that the conscience of the first responders they expect to stand by and watch as people off themselves is more important than to whom blame is assigned? At what point does this nation wake up and realize that the blame should rest with the person that attempts suicide, regardless of the ultimate outcome, but that the person may not be mentally competent to shoulder said blame. At what point does this country wake up and realize that assigning blame is NOT the most important aspect of this discussion, but the humanity of our nation is?

"Mental health" is a dirty phrase in our government lexicon. We can pay lip service to it, but I'll be damned if we can be bothered to have a comprehensive response and treatment plan for it. We put a band-aid on their psyche and boot their ass out the door as soon as the forms can be rubber stamped and filed. If we're going to pretend that it matters without really addressing the problem, why bother? Why not just take them out back and whack them with a hammer? It disgusts me how we have the gall to claim that every life is sacred when it's an unborn baby or the elderly or the terminally ill, but suicide is now a spectator sport? WTF???

...or I can never work in my profession again (in the US), or I can lose my home because agency malpractice won't cover me, we might even get some time in jail "if we fail", but that's ok because I really hate my wife and kids.

See, if you lose your license/cert in one state for gross disregard of protocol/policy/however your state phrases it, you won't get a new license (legally) elsewhere. You've become a liability. I like 7-11 clerks. I'm glad we have them. I don't want to have to make that my career.

I know where you're coming from. I believe in the sanctity of life. I've spent a whoooole lotta time working with EDPs of a bunch of different flavors.

There has been more info: now apparently the Dept is going to allow untrained responders to respond. That will continue until a few of them die. It will be rescinded again. At least there was only one dead this time around.

Yep, that sucks. Have you written your elected officials about the problem? Have you attended any rallies? Initiated any rallies? Made any phone calls? Spoken at community events or town halls? Voted against judges that rule in arrogance and ignorance? Do you care either way? I'm sure you do, but is the "sanctity of life" worth more than a "tsk, tsk" and some lip service? Not everyone knows that it's damn near illegal for a "first responder" to respond in many circumstances, due to ignorance and callousness of certain lawmaking and legal rulings. We have to do more than bemoan the situation. Even a small act is better than a shoulder shrug and sigh.

Too bad TSA Superman was not there to coordinate the rescue efforts. Nothing like Monday morning, eh?

Yeah, it takes a real hero to talk to someone, or find a boat and a rope, or do any of the aforementioned things. Whatever, I'm done here. Like I said, no reason to care about anyone anymore I guess. What a country we live in huh?

 

[tmotulsa]

How exactly was this guy supposed to be saved? - firefighters growing wings or the cops using their cruisers for flotation device?

Get a boat and an old garage door.

 

[ttown]

looks like someone could have swam far enough (150 ft offshore, 6ft of water) to push something that floated, an ice cheast or surf board would have been a chance for him to save himself. Also a firehouse without a rope to swim and throw to the guy no contact there either or how about the firehose? Maybe these wouldn't have worked but they are all basic things that could have been tried. JMO

 

[Rob72]

Yep, that sucks. Have you written your elected officials about the problem? Have you attended any rallies? Initiated any rallies? Made any phone calls? Spoken at community events or town halls? Voted against judges that rule in arrogance and ignorance? Do you care either way? I'm sure you do, but is the "sanctity of life" worth more than a "tsk, tsk" and some lip service? Not everyone knows that it's damn near illegal for a "first responder" to respond in many circumstances, due to ignorance and callousness of certain lawmaking and legal rulings. We have to do more than bemoan the situation. Even a small act is better than a shoulder shrug and sigh.

Ever hear of the American Trial Lawyers Assosciation? BTDT. You won't slaughter their cash-cow unless you slaughter them- literally.

Also, this was not a "water rescue", it was a suicide attempt. I generally don't use this phrase, but here it certainly applies: if you haven't tried to talk down/rescue an EDP, you don't have much to criticise.

My personal creedo has always been that it is important to know policy and procedure so that one knows how and when to circumvent them. There are times to "take it upon yourself". I will not stand in the place of the professional there and state that this was one of those times. If I were on-scene in a non-professional capacity, now...

 

[BuddyL]

The guy was obviously committed to follow through with his actions. It wouldn't be much effort to take a first responder or concerned citizen down with him. Everyone keeps saying 6 feet of water like it is nothing until they are at the bottom of it.

Suicide=water=mission accomplised=noone else died that day.

 

[beast1989]

The rescue guys on the shore watching this must have been without cell phones or radios, too. There are inter-agency agreements in place that allow them to call their dispatch to call sister agencies in the Bay Area that are equipped and trained for any mission that they are not able to accomplish.

That the rescue guys on the shore watching did not do this is a complete mystery.

WTF was going on out there?

Well they did call in a helicopter and tried to get the coast guard involved. Coast Guard's boat couldnt reach the shallow depth and the heli was in use at the time and arrived late.

 

[beast1989]

Here is "The Deal": ...and its true for most services across the country. If a person is drowning/in flood waters/river/etc., Police/Fire/EMS are to wait for the Water Rescue squad, for two primary reasons- 1) if something goes wrong, the family of the victim may sue, stating that the actions of the "untrained" rescuer(s) contributed to or caused the victim's death, and 2) if the rescuer dies, their family may sue the municipality for inadequate training, leading to the death.

From the perspective of a responder, if you attempt a rescue, and succeed, great, the Dept. gives you a medal and a quiet verbal warning not to do that s**t again. If you fail, you'll definitely be fired, and you may lose your license, if the Dept. goes to the State Board and accuses you of "practice beyond competence". Welfare of my family & waste of education and experience by forced career change, vs. trying to save jerkwad who is trying to kill himself....hmmmmm.

Along with that, its typical Cali/urban America- ZERO personal responsibility. We want to be able to sue if things go wrong, but whine and cry when the resulting protective measures that practioners have to have lead to unintended consequences, and we sure as heck won't do anything "MYSELF!?!?"

Ok, so all the machismos say they are going to wade 150 yards or more out in the surf in sub 60 degree water with no gear and no training, then attempt to rescue a guy that is trying to kill himself in six feet of water and still has fight in him.

Got it.

Agree. Just because someone is a fire fighter doesnt mean they are an all purpose super hero.

If I was there and I was a fire fighter I wouldnt step into the water because for one I can barely swim the length of a pool, the distance involved, having to drag a person back who wants to be out there to begin with, the temp of water, lack of training, lack of proper equipment/clothing, protocol (unfortunately), and what could happen to my family and my life if i try gallantly but still fail.

No one on the beach enjoyed being helpless but at the end of the day the man consciously put himself in a very good position to lose his life so I would never expect anyone to put themselves in an equally deadly position just to save another, especially when they have family's of their own to come home to. These men do more for their community's in a weeks worth of work than most Americans do in a lifetime so i would be foolish to down them for this.

 

[beast1989]

I guess I just don't understand the "do nothing cause I might get hurt or sued" mentality. Several times I have put myself in danger to help another human being when noone else would. I'm NOT a hero by any stretch, nor am I claiming to be one! I'm just of the belief that if I see someone in peril, I will do what I can to help them, no matter the cost. Because I sure as hell would hope to expect the same in return.


ETA: Yay! Post 1,000! lol.

Listen I like to help too but believe it or not there are many people out there that arent strong swimmers. Being in court is stressful and going there with your life and livelihood on the line is unimaginable. Tell me how you'd feel if you went out there got beat up by the guy for a little bit and doggy paddled back with one arm for 45 minutes all the while dragging the guy back with the other, only for him to be pronounced dead. AND THEN get sued by his mother for eleventy billion dollars because you werent part of the emergency personnel present?

Dont tell me it doesnt happen, bc it happens everyday......