Waco incident 4-19-93

[henschman]

None of this changes the fact that they were minding their own business and the Feds were the aggressors. The Davidians were content to live by themselves on their compound and do their thing. All they wanted was to be left alone... which is why they were living in a friggin compound. It was the feds who broke into their compound with armed men, not the other way around.

You pointing out how "lawful" the Feds' actions were means nothing to me. The law countenances a lot of aggression in a lot of ways. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it wrong to defend oneself against it when it does happen.

 

[Ace_on_the_Turn]

None of this changes the fact that they were minding their own business and the Feds were the aggressors. The Davidians were content to live by themselves on their compound and do their thing. All they wanted was to be left alone... which is why they were living in a friggin compound. It was the feds who broke into their compound with armed men, not the other way around.

You pointing out how "lawful" the Feds' actions were means nothing to me. The law countenances a lot of aggression in a lot of ways. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it wrong to defend oneself against it when it does happen.

I agree the warrant was weak. But that does not change the fact, it was a lawful warrant. Either you believe in the law or you believe in anarchy. In this country you can't decide that wanting to be left alone allows you to ambush and kill LEO's executing a lawful warrant. If a cop pulls me over for speeding, and I know I was not speeding, I don't get to kill the cop.

 

[mightymouse]

The Davidians were assembling weapons and amassing ammo in preparation for an apocalyptic ending--of this, there simply is no doubt. The ATF suspected that some of those weapons may have been converted to full auto. In addition, with the Jonestown fiasco fresh in everyone's mind, no one wanted to see another mass murder/suicide event go down. Ex-members of the Davidians allege that Koresh was planning exactly that--a mass murder/suicide. The Branch Davidians had a reputation for handling disputes with violence, including a shootout between Koresh and his cronies, and the former leader of the cult, George Roden. Minding their own business doesn't really describe the Davidians.

 

[TedKennedy]

I agree the warrant was weak. But that does not change the fact, it was a lawful warrant. Either you believe in the law or you believe in anarchy. In this country you can't decide that wanting to be left alone allows you to ambush and kill LEO's executing a lawful warrant. If a cop pulls me over for speeding, and I know I was not speeding, I don't get to kill the cop.

I personally believe in anarchy. And "ambush" is what the feds did, not the other way around.

 

[TedKennedy]

The Davidians were assembling weapons and amassing ammo in preparation for an apocalyptic ending--of this, there simply is no doubt. The ATF suspected that some of those weapons may have been converted to full auto. In addition, with the Jonestown fiasco fresh in everyone's mind, no one wanted to see another mass murder/suicide event go down. Ex-members of the Davidians allege that Koresh was planning exactly that--a mass murder/suicide. The Branch Davidians had a reputation for handling disputes with violence, including a shootout between Koresh and his cronies, and the former leader of the cult, George Roden. Minding their own business doesn't really describe the Davidians.

There are a lot of gun owners that are amassing weapons and ammo in preparation for an apocalyptic ending. The media usually portrays such forward-thinking individuals as "preppers", "survivalists" and the like. "Arsenal" is the word the hand-wringing media uses to describe a guys gun collection.

 

[mightymouse]

I personally believe in anarchy. And "ambush" is what the feds did, not the other way around.

The Davidians were tipped off. They were the ones waiting in ambush for the Feds to approach, not the other way around.

 

[mightymouse]

There are a lot of gun owners that are amassing weapons and ammo in preparation for an apocalyptic ending.

Maybe so, but Koresh saw himself as ready, willing, and able to bring about the apocalypse by his own actions. He overestimated his own ability (Jesus Christ he was not, even if he thought he was), and underestimated the ability of the government. Koresh's apocalyptic vision was fatally flawed, but then he was a born dumbass.

 

[TedKennedy]

The Davidians were tipped off. They were the ones waiting in ambush for the Feds to approach, not the other way around.

The feds were on someone else's property. They didn't come knock on the front door, and they were impolite.
Koresh was a dumbass, no doubt - but as far as I can tell he and the other folks at Waco were minding their own business.

 

[henschman]

In this country you can't decide that wanting to be left alone allows you to ambush and kill LEO's executing a lawful warrant.

Sure you can. There may be consequences, but we are beings with volitional consciousness. We are perfectly capable of deciding a law is immoral or unjust and defying it. As a matter of fact, I consider anyone who would obey any law, regardless of his own thoughts about it, and has no point at which he would defy a law, regardless of its injustice, to be a pitiful excuse for a human being and undeserving of the incredible gift of consciousness that was bestowed upon him.

 

[Ace_on_the_Turn]

The feds were on someone else's property. They didn't come knock on the front door, and they were impolite.
Koresh was a dumbass, no doubt - but as far as I can tell he and the other folks at Waco were minding their own business.

It they were just minding they own business, why ambush and kill 4 agents that were executing a lawful warrant? Because the agents were impolite? When the police show up at your door with a warrant, you don't get to discuss the merits of the warrant. You allow the search and then avail yourself of the court system for any redress.