Terminal Ballistics from the Morgue

[SiGArmed]

Excellent read. Guess I know what I will be putting in my .38 spl.

 

[_CY_]

now that's hard to believe... BG taking a 12ga at point blank range and be able to keep going.

great read! I remember reading many years ago from a BG point of view about coming out of a house against police, getting shot he said at point blank with a 12ga. and saying it knocked the wind outta him but nothing he couldn't handle and kept going. He then said he felt a seering pain in his arm and later wakeing up in a hospitol with his arm amputated. he had been hit in the elbow with a .45 and it destroyed the joint and bones and this was the shot that took him down. wish i could remember where i had read that to make sure all the stuff i remember was correct.

 

[MoBoost]

Bringing it back from dead, since I somehow missed the thread (read the article though) ... and well I need to add to the kumbaya .

Overall interesting read - but I feel like I am being exposed to a presidential speech there is so much flip-flopping, and hard driven predetermined agenda.

First of all - let me say that learning about self defense from a morgue perspective is just as productive as learning about hunting from a butcher (no disrespect meant for people of medical profession).

Second - how do you tell 380, 9mm, 38 and 357 apart on the morgue table?

Third - I think he gets a merit for every time he says he loves .45

Let me comment on some of the more "interesting" stuff (with my comments in parenthesis):

- I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations ... the 125-grain .357 is marvelously effective (and you can tell them apart how?)

- 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45 (according to independent study there is no significant difference in one-shot-stops among all calibers - 50%)

- Skip a 9mm off the sternum (breastbone) and the fight continues; plow through the sternum with a .45 and, trust me, the fight is over. (different than ... Skip a .45 off the sternum (breastbone) and the fight continues; plow through the sternum with a 9mm and, trust me, the fight is over.)

- weight of the bullet is a major factor in reaching the vital organs (wow, wow, wow ... how did we come up with that conclusion?)
- Look, folks, you don't have to blow the heart into a million pieces; you've just got to hit it (agreed!)

- Anyway, the kinetic energy imparted by a bullet as it enters the body depends on two things--the weight of the bullet and the velocity at which it is traveling. Of the two, velocity is more important. Doubling the velocity quadruples the kinetic energy; doubling the bullet weight only doubles it.(makes sense!)

- So, do you still want to shoot that 125-grain 9mm when you could have a 230-grain .45? (but what about velocity? I thought it is "more important" and "quadruples" and all that ... oh man)

And my favorite for the last:
-Of all the rounds I've seen that are 1-shot kills, it's the .45 that is the clear winner (well if he remembers it like that - let it be, but the real answer is 9mm, even if it was less effective, the fact that it is used 3-4 times more often drives the numbers VERY high; but admitting to that would really make the whole article pointless since we already struggle with the 357 "anomaly")

 

[Sanjuro82]

I'm not going to think twice about carrying 15rds of 9mm Speer Gold Dot in all of my carry guns after reading that. I seriously doubt that the multiple gunshot victims he's seen are high-end modern-technology self defense bullets.
]

Yep that's one of my main problems with the article. The bad guys aren't shooting high-end +P modern HP self defense 9mm out of their Hi-Point C9s! They are shooting Winchester White Box or Federal FMJ that they picked up at Wally World.

 

[MyMonkey]

Interesting read.

 

[ripnbst]

Awesome reading, glad I chose a 1911 chambered in .45acp.

 

[_CY_]

went back and re-read this again... glad five rounds of 158gn .357 is in my CCW.

not to slight 9mm... my house go to gun is a Glock 17 loaded with 17 rounds of Winchester Ranger 9mm +P+ 127 grain. G17 has all but taken over house warming duties from TR-870 shotty loaded with 12g 00 buck.

 

[spd67]

If we postulate that the purpose of shooting someone is to stop them from fighting or agressing against us...I for one would love to see how many assaults ended but did not kill the badguy with .380 or 9mm now those would be some good statistics...I would venture to say that there are alot of Bad Guys stopped with those rounds and would say they are adiquate for self defense. Now having said that and knowing what I know I usually carry a .45 compact 1911, a .357 Ruger sp101, or a Smith .38 +p for my CCW of choice.

 

[ripnbst]

- So, do you still want to shoot that 125-grain 9mm when you could have a 230-grain .45? (but what about velocity? I thought it is "more important" and "quadruples" and all that ... oh man)

While I agree with practically everything you said this quote was taken out of context. He was saying that in handguns you largely give up the advantage of velocity. In a handgun the 9mm is traveling faster yes, but is it fast enough to overcome practically doubling the weight? If the guy wasn't an ME, and was an engineer like me he could tell you using...wait for it....wait for it...MATHEMATICS!!!


KE=Kinetic Energy
KE=(1/2)M X V ^2 (^2 means squared)

.45 ACP using 230 gr and 890 FPS Velocity as pulled from ableammo.com for Speer Gold Dot

KE=.5 230 gr X 890 FPS ^2

.5 X 230 = 115

890 X 890 = 792,100

KE = 792,100 x 115

KE=91,091,500 units (whatever they are)

9MM Using 124 gr and 1220 FPS as pulled from ableammo.com for Speer Gold Dot

KE=.5 x 124 x 1220^2

KE=62 X 1,488,400

KE=92,280,800 units (whatever they are)

You can see the 9mm actually wins there by a small margin but I have some bad news, that calculation is done at the muzzle. The .45 will lose a smaller percentage of its energy at 25 feet than 9mm will due to its lower initial Velocity. So the .45 wins mathematically in terms of energy in real life but loses at the muzzle. I'd bet it only takes 10 feet to make them equivalent in terms of energy but then lets consider inertia. Would you rather have your house hit by a Honda civic or an Escalade? An object in motion tends to stay in motion and heavier objects resist any change in velocity or trajectory better than lighter faster ones. ie .45 v 9mm.

I shoot the .45 because I prefer its recoil characteristic of a push over the snap of the smaller calibers. Has little to do with the ballistics, but the .45 ACP is still more than adequate and knowing that I chose it for the preference listed above.

 

[MoBoost]

Now there's an interesting piece of information to calculate, at what distance does the energy of the .45 surpass the 9mm?

Since BCs are the same - I guess the answer is never.


I really think the biggest lesson learned from that article is that even if the person is very closely involved in the field and is generally respected, can be totally full of crap if their research/claims/opinions are not supported by data!

Please note the whole article doesn't have ANY data - the only real number mentioned:
a) how many days there in the year: 365 - I think he got it right, sort of
b) how many autopsies were performed: 8.2 EVERY DAY!!! - not bad for 328 firearm homicides that year IN THE WHOLE STATE OF TENNESSEE!! Assuming that he did every single autopsy in the state and the fact that 45acp is used in roughly 10% of homicides - well really shows you how many he could possibly performed ... and in reality we are talking about 2-3 45acp deaths A YEAR!!!!

That's it and that's all - everything else is pure speculation .... very sad now that I think about it. I'm afraid that the data was actually there and accessible, just not presented because it didn't fit the agenda (and how could it?!?).

Point is: check your sources, check the data - then make conclusions.

SHOW ME THA DATA BRO!!!