12GA or M4/AR15

[KurtM]

I guess I am seriously delerious!

I am guessing that this whole thread is ment in a "survival" sort of way so....

The limitations of the 12 ga. here we go.....you have to have the right round in it at the right time. Ie you are hunting your Quail and a deer pops up...he isn't going to be interested in your #8 shot, neither will the 2 legged animal that wants all the quail you have killed. It is slower to load and it's capacity is less. Unless you have a good set of sights on the shotgun it would be hard to hit a deer much past 50 yards. If you do have a good set of sights on it, it is harder to hit flying targets. for anti personel use, unless you carry it with slugs all the time, your effective distance of engagement is seriously limited, and if you have slugs in it all the time, wouldn't you be carring a sort of rifle? Ammo for it is VERY heavy, and what with all the specialty rounds you need, Bird shot, buckshot, slugs, the load would be impressive!

To address some of the questions posted so far....Yes I can hit a deer at 300 yards with Iron sights, Yes I can hit a rabit in the head at 50 Yards with a 308 with Iron sights, Yes I can shoot a Quail, Duck, Goose with a 308. Who said anything about flying? Yes .223 can kill anything, so can a .22lr but what it can't do well is penetrate whether it be big bones, or car doors. I would hate to be charged by a bear and only have a .223. Now a 308 with 20 rounds on board? Yep! And yes I have tried that out in practice when I worked in the Brooks Range in Alaska.

If I were to bet on what killed the most of anything I would have to go with a .22 lr KurtM

 

[Glock 'em down]

Hmmm...

 

[SMS]

Yes I can shoot a Quail, Duck, Goose with a 308. Who said anything about flying?

But can you eat 'em after you've shot them with that .308?

If you are headshooting quail and duck, then you fall into the specialty category and are not to be messed with...the rest of us will stick to the general use for the average guy.

 

[jcbarlow]

But can you eat 'em after you've shot them with that .308...doubt it.

Switching ammo in a shogun isn't that tough...with practice and a sidesaddle.

How many sidesaddles can you fit on a shotgun for 4 diff types of ammo

 

[Glock 'em down]

How many sidesaddles can you fit on a shotgun for 4 diff types of ammo

My 590's sidesaddle holds 6 rounds of double ought and my it's Speedfeed stock holds 4 slugs.

I don't use the 590 for quail, so I don't carry any birdshot.

 

[KurtM]

AHHH and the education goes on. First off a duck or goose doesn't have much resistence to upset or expand a rifle round such as 308. Now .223 goes divergent much faster than 308 and IS explosive on small to medium size fowl, not so the 308, it just drills a nice .30 caliber hole right on through with very little expantion. I have ate several medium sized fowl to even large size (Turkey) that have been killed with a 308. this also includes Rabbits and Marmots. The meat distruction just isn't that much.

Let,s look at the affore mentioned 590 ( I like 590s by the way ). It has 9 rounds of buckshot in the tube 6 more in the side saddle and 4 slugs in the stock for a total of 19 rounds, of these 10 have to loaded one at a time, and only 4 of them are what we would call precision ammunition (slugs). We also need to have fore-warning as to what type of ammo we might need. It would be a rare shotgun that would hold Buckshot to any acceptable pattern past 35 yards, and as for slugs it would be even rarer to have a shotgun with the precision to hit a deer sized target at 150 yards. Now lets say you need all 19 rounds for what ever reason, the first 9 would be fairly fast, but the next ten would be VERY slow. Lets say we can load a round a second ( and we are now talking about a very RARE individual to say the least... for the average shooter it would be closer to 3-4 seconds a round). That is at least 10 seconds of loading not shooting. You also won't know you are out of ammo untill it goes click, or you count rounds ( once again a rare individual that can do that under stress)

Now we look at the 308, it has 20 rounds on board, all the ammunition is as effective as 308 is, from the muzzle out to say 300 yards ( yea you can shoot them a lot farther but we are talking about the average sghooter). If you need to reload it, a new magazine holds a full 20 rounds more and for the average shooter can be changed in 3-4 second. So our continued rate of fire is 20 rounds with a 4 second hiatus and then 20 more. In a "survival" situation I really doubt anyone in their right mind would be taking wing shots or running rabbit shots, too much chance of missing with your limited ammo supply, so that argument is pretty much a wash for the both.

Now for the best part, if your support hand or strong hand are injured so that you can't grasp and pump the functioning of the 590 becomes very dificult. The 308 can be held with one hand just like the shotgun, BUT it loads it'sself with each pull of the trigger.

Now before you all think I am anti shotgun, I teach shotgun classes all over the world to L.E. and civilians. I teach the combat shotgun classes for T.D.S.A. I am well versed in the abilities of the shotgun, and in my opinion they fall short in the all round department. Just so you can get an idea of the skill level I am talking about (when it comes to loading a shotugn) go to you tube, look up bear1142 and look at the shotgun reloading video of "Mr. Weakhand" This guy can load 8 shells in 6.15 seconds, and he recomends a 308. Just something to think on. KurtM

 

[sdsconcrete]

For all around gotta be my 12ga.

 

[aeropb]

I'd take an AR-15 in moderate climate areas. Any extreme region.. sign me up for a 12 ga.

 

[SMS]

Good points Kurt...

Ammo capacity is not as much a concern in this given scenario I think...one is not going to be out looking to get into a sustained firefight. Stealth, speed, and avoidance would be the rules of the day...as would the ability to scrounge whatever ammo could be found. 12ga is so popular that in tough times one is far more likely to find some sort of ammunition for it as opposed to .308.

Just as you say folks wouldn't be wing shooting due to ammo concerns, I would counter that most folks should not be attempting head shots on small game.

Yes, an auto loader is handy for one handed shooting but I would imagine delivering accurate sustained fire in any position other than supported prone with either platform would be difficult enough to eliminate any distinction when it comes to one handed operation. But if auto loading is a desire, then auto loading shotguns are readily available.

You do have me tempted to bust a goose with my M1A just to see how it goes...

 

[aeropb]

You do have me tempted to bust a goose with my M1A just to see how it goes...

I wanna see some pics of that!