12GA or M4/AR15

[Glocktogo]

AHHH and the education goes on. First off a duck or goose doesn't have much resistence to upset or expand a rifle round such as 308. Now .223 goes divergent much faster than 308 and IS explosive on small to medium size fowl, not so the 308, it just drills a nice .30 caliber hole right on through with very little expantion. I have ate several medium sized fowl to even large size (Turkey) that have been killed with a 308. this also includes Rabbits and Marmots. The meat distruction just isn't that much.

Let,s look at the affore mentioned 590 ( I like 590s by the way ). It has 9 rounds of buckshot in the tube 6 more in the side saddle and 4 slugs in the stock for a total of 19 rounds, of these 10 have to loaded one at a time, and only 4 of them are what we would call precision ammunition (slugs). We also need to have fore-warning as to what type of ammo we might need. It would be a rare shotgun that would hold Buckshot to any acceptable pattern past 35 yards, and as for slugs it would be even rarer to have a shotgun with the precision to hit a deer sized target at 150 yards. Now lets say you need all 19 rounds for what ever reason, the first 9 would be fairly fast, but the next ten would be VERY slow. Lets say we can load a round a second ( and we are now talking about a very RARE individual to say the least... for the average shooter it would be closer to 3-4 seconds a round). That is at least 10 seconds of loading not shooting. You also won't know you are out of ammo untill it goes click, or you count rounds ( once again a rare individual that can do that under stress)

Now we look at the 308, it has 20 rounds on board, all the ammunition is as effective as 308 is, from the muzzle out to say 300 yards ( yea you can shoot them a lot farther but we are talking about the average sghooter). If you need to reload it, a new magazine holds a full 20 rounds more and for the average shooter can be changed in 3-4 second. So our continued rate of fire is 20 rounds with a 4 second hiatus and then 20 more. In a "survival" situation I really doubt anyone in their right mind would be taking wing shots or running rabbit shots, too much chance of missing with your limited ammo supply, so that argument is pretty much a wash for the both.

Now for the best part, if your support hand or strong hand are injured so that you can't grasp and pump the functioning of the 590 becomes very dificult. The 308 can be held with one hand just like the shotgun, BUT it loads it'sself with each pull of the trigger.

Now before you all think I am anti shotgun, I teach shotgun classes all over the world to L.E. and civilians. I teach the combat shotgun classes for T.D.S.A. I am well versed in the abilities of the shotgun, and in my opinion they fall short in the all round department. Just so you can get an idea of the skill level I am talking about (when it comes to loading a shotugn) go to you tube, look up bear1142 and look at the shotgun reloading video of "Mr. Weakhand" This guy can load 8 shells in 6.15 seconds, and he recomends a 308. Just something to think on. KurtM

I doubt you're gonna get very far with all this logic nonsense.

 

[Istandalone]

Very good discussion. The OP question was broad, yet specific to firearm. no mention of AR-10. For discussion's sake, we can include it, which obviously changes the whole argument.

For strickly a survival weapon, not combat. I think that the .22 lr w/ fixed 2 or 4x scope is probably best - low cost, highly available ammo, low noise, recoil, etc. Can provide food, and, against a person, can be useful if absolutly necessary.

Now if you are talking about in a SHTF scene, then you grab what you got and make do. I don't have to be limited to one choice, thank goodness.

 

[Perplexed]

But if auto loading is a desire, then auto loading shotguns are readily available.

Also, the time spent reloading can be alleviated if one uses a Saiga 12 with box magazines.

 

[cjjtulsa]

Why not the best (or worst) of both....a Stevens Model 24 in (pick your rifle caliber) over 12 gauge?

 

[shootinpreacher48]

i guess i will input my two cents, get both, you may need both, they both have goods and bads, and you never know.

 

[grwd]

Also, the time spent reloading can be alleviated if one uses a Saiga 12 with box magazines.

time spent reloading? I know what you mean. I wish I could afford a saiga and not worry about that.

Here is kurtM bumbling around trying to feed his benelli.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7C0hPICnXk

 

[SMS]

Why not the best (or worst) of both....a Stevens Model 24 in (pick your rifle caliber) over 12 gauge?

Indeed....I have two: one .22lr/20ga and a .30-30/12ga. Lots of options there, especially when you throw in a few barrel inserts.

 

[dennishoddy]

300 yards? Hell, I can't even see that far!

Could you hit a deer at 300 yards with IRON sights?

1000 yd matches are shot at the National Championships in Camp Perry Ohio every year with iron sights Last time I checked, they were getting groups in the 5" area.

 

[dennishoddy]

I guess I am seriously delerious!

I am guessing that this whole thread is ment in a "survival" sort of way so....

The limitations of the 12 ga. here we go.....you have to have the right round in it at the right time. Ie you are hunting your Quail and a deer pops up...he isn't going to be interested in your #8 shot, neither will the 2 legged animal that wants all the quail you have killed. It is slower to load and it's capacity is less. Unless you have a good set of sights on the shotgun it would be hard to hit a deer much past 50 yards. If you do have a good set of sights on it, it is harder to hit flying targets. for anti personel use, unless you carry it with slugs all the time, your effective distance of engagement is seriously limited, and if you have slugs in it all the time, wouldn't you be carring a sort of rifle? Ammo for it is VERY heavy, and what with all the specialty rounds you need, Bird shot, buckshot, slugs, the load would be impressive!

To address some of the questions posted so far....Yes I can hit a deer at 300 yards with Iron sights, Yes I can hit a rabit in the head at 50 Yards with a 308 with Iron sights, Yes I can shoot a Quail, Duck, Goose with a 308. Who said anything about flying? Yes .223 can kill anything, so can a .22lr but what it can't do well is penetrate whether it be big bones, or car doors. I would hate to be charged by a bear and only have a .223. Now a 308 with 20 rounds on board? Yep! And yes I have tried that out in practice when I worked in the Brooks Range in Alaska.

If I were to bet on what killed the most of anything I would have to go with a .22 lr KurtM

The original question was "what is the best gun platform"
not for survival.
My vote is for the 12 ga. You post some valid questions about the 12ga platform, but the "best gun platform" has to be the shotty.
With the new shotgun technology like Hevi-Shot, it takes a short range round in #4 out another 20 yds of effectivness with much greater penetration because of the hardness of the shot. Keeping it round maintains a tighter group at longer ranges.

Slugs are not the "punkin balls" that most are familiar with. The newest have sabot jackets with velocities aproaching 2000fps. That makes a 200+ yd shot really reasonable.
If the zombies attack and your in an urban enviroment, where 90% of the action is door to door, I'll take the 12 ga.
Center fire snipers would take care of the long range requirments.
In the "best gun platform" the 12 ga can take quail and everything up to and including the biggest game in North America and most of the world.
As a Vet from 1971, I can assure you that in a jungle enviroment, the 12ga is the prefered weapon for me when fire fights can take place at 50 foot ranges.
00 buck works really well.

 

[KurtM]

Sabot slugs need a rifled barrel to perform with any form of accuracy past 25 yards, which absolutely destroys shot patterns to the tune of 36" patterns @ 15 yards. So if you have a rifled shotgun barrel you have a slug shooter and that is it, in other words a rifle.

Hardness has very little to do with penetration, weight on the other hand has quite a bit when it comes to round balls., but less shot defermation does good things to patterns.

In a dense jungle or house clearing it is darn hard to beat a gage.

For all round use we will all have to agree to disagree.