.38 / .357

[Shadowrider]

You take two 7"Lx6"Hx2"W firearms - something most people consider "concealable".
9mm semi will have 4" barrel, 357 wheel gun will have 2" barrel.
With standard loads, grain per grain bullet weight - 9mm will be faster, thus delivering more energy.

Don't get me wrong - 357 is powerhouse, it blew my mind when loads for my lever gun surpassed 30-30 .... it just needs that long barrel and no cylinder gap to transfer energy to the bullet, not air via muzzle blast.

Me thinks you underestimate the capabilities of the "Mighty Magnum".

Buffalo Bore's Tactical Low Recoil-Low Flash round, item #19H

1642 fps - Marlin 1894, 18 inch barrel
1333 fps - S&W mod. 27, 5 inch barrel
1383 fps - S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel
1295 fps - S&W mod 66, 3 inch barrel
1235 fps - S&W mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel

Even a 9mm +P still loses.

 

[MoBoost]

Me thinks you underestimate the capabilities of the "Mighty Magnum".

Buffalo Bore's Tactical Low Recoil-Low Flash round, item #19H

1642 fps - Marlin 1894, 18 inch barrel
1333 fps - S&W mod. 27, 5 inch barrel
1383 fps - S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel
1295 fps - S&W mod 66, 3 inch barrel
1235 fps - S&W mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel

Even a 9mm +P still loses.

Me thinks you underestimate my capabilities of checking the sources

Apples to apples: the only 9mm ammo Buffalo Bore offers is item #24F +P+ Penetrator

1295 fps - Glock 19, 4" barrel

 

[Pstmstr]

Me thinks you underestimate my capabilities of checking the sources

Apples to apples: the only 9mm ammo Buffalo Bore offers is item #24F +P+ Penetrator

1295 fps - Glock 19, 4" barrel

so you kind of prove his point, even a +P+ 9mm can't beat a low recoil, low flash load out of the 4 inch barrel. Larger bullet, moving faster equals more power doesn't it? Evan Marshall's stopping power book and website have some good info on this age old argument. I will say that for most shooters, a good hit with something like a Gold Dot 9mm bullet beats the heck out of a lot of flash and bang from a .357 Magnum. I've got a scandium frame .357 snubby and a Kahr PM9. If I had to bet on the one to make good hits with, it's the Kahr every time. There really is no such thing as absolute stopping power in any handgun load. The key is a decent bullet hitting the right places, preferably more than 1.

 

[Mr.357Sig]

Sorry, MoBoost. The .357 mag, even out of a snub, will do more damage to the BG than any 9mm. That's the facts Jack.

Here's what GunBlast's R.K. Campbell has to say on the subject first-hand:

"The 9mm isn’t ok. Tell the fellow who took four 9mm soft point bullets and still managed to inflict a nasty wound that remains with me to this day, and gives my face ‘character’.

The .38 isn’t enough. I once shot a fellow in the lower leg who debated with me whether he had been hit at all until the blood ran from his shoe - then he commenced whimpering and crying.

I observed the effect of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP once over the top of my own sights. The effect was gruesome. A solid hit that produced a severe blood flow AND dramatic effect from the rear, including lung tissue thrown perhaps three feet."

 

[Shadowrider]

Me thinks you underestimate my capabilities of checking the sources

Apples to apples: the only 9mm ammo Buffalo Bore offers is item #24F +P+ Penetrator

1295 fps - Glock 19, 4" barrel

How are you getting "apples to apples" by limiting the revolver to a snub nose barrel length with your "dimension box"? The O/P said he had to use a 4" barreled revolver? Spin it all you want but 9mm never has been and never will be even close to an equivalent of the .357 Magnum. You whip out a non-SAMMI pressured +P+ round to compare with a SAMMI compliant round tha can be fired in any .357 chambered gun on the market? And just think, I didn't even go back to the ballistics of the .357 magnum when it was originally introduced. You wanna compare the 9mm to a 158 grain bullet at 1450 instead of a 125 grain? 'Cuz that what it was back in the day.

Hopefully soon I'm going to have some chrono data that shows a hot loaded mag with a slow burning powder shot out of a short barrel snubbie is still faster than a hot loaded mag with a faster powder shot out of the same snubbie. There's the theory that states that the quicker powder will actually generate more velocity because it burns more completely. I'm going to do my own testing to find out soon, now that I have my chrono back up and running. But I don't buy that theory and the ballistics data of Buffalo Bore's ammo makes me think that they have figured it out and got it down to a science. Those guys have some sort of juju going on that all the big ammunition makers don't, or aren't interested in, I'm not sure which.

 

[Hobbes]

But I don't buy that theory and the ballistics data of Buffalo Bore's ammo makes me think that they have figured it out and got it down to a science. Those guys have some sort of juju going on that all the big ammunition makers don't, or aren't interested in, I'm not sure which.

Duplex powders perhaps and large scale ammo production doesn't lend itself well to duplex powder formulations.

 

[MoBoost]

so you kind of prove his point, even a +P+ 9mm can't beat a low recoil, low flash load out of the 4 inch barrel. Larger bullet, moving faster equals more power doesn't it? Evan Marshall's stopping power book and website have some good info on this age old argument. I will say that for most shooters, a good hit with something like a Gold Dot 9mm bullet beats the heck out of a lot of flash and bang from a .357 Magnum. I've got a scandium frame .357 snubby and a Kahr PM9. If I had to bet on the one to make good hits with, it's the Kahr every time. There really is no such thing as absolute stopping power in any handgun load. The key is a decent bullet hitting the right places, preferably more than 1.

4" revolver is not the same sized gun as a 4" semi - revolvers have the privilege of measuring barrel length from forcing cone, unlike EVERY other firearm (breach to muzzle)! The only way to compare handguns unbiased is with overall size in mind. You are better off concealing 1911 than a 4" revolver in 357. The only fair comparison is 4" 9mm vs 2" 357.

Sorry, MoBoost. The .357 mag, even out of a snub, will do more damage to the BG than any 9mm. That's the facts Jack.

Here's what GunBlast's R.K. Campbell has to say on the subject first-hand:

"The 9mm isn’t ok. Tell the fellow who took four 9mm soft point bullets and still managed to inflict a nasty wound that remains with me to this day, and gives my face ‘character’.

The .38 isn’t enough. I once shot a fellow in the lower leg who debated with me whether he had been hit at all until the blood ran from his shoe - then he commenced whimpering and crying.

I observed the effect of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP once over the top of my own sights. The effect was gruesome. A solid hit that produced a severe blood flow AND dramatic effect from the rear, including lung tissue thrown perhaps three feet."

I'm sorry - anyone who claims that they can tell a difference between 9mm and 357mag bullet once it leaves the muzzle is a full of it. The science here is not very complicated.

 

[MoBoost]

How are you getting "apples to apples" by limiting the revolver to a snub nose barrel length with your "dimension box"?

It's not my fault that revolver simplicity, reliability and ease of operation comes at the price of comparatively short barrel, increased width and limited capacity.

 

[Shadowrider]

357mag and 45ACP are the best cuz they are American!!!! If you say otherwise - you are terrorist!

The fact is, in the same sized 9mm Luger pistol delivers more energy than 357mag revolver, despite half the recoil and half the muzzle blast and half the noise report; but that's very inconvenient and un-American to acknowledge.

To answer OP question - magnum anything is just better, don't question it ...

PS. e=mv²/2

4" revolver is not the same sized gun as a 4" semi - revolvers have the privilege of measuring barrel length from forcing cone, unlike EVERY other firearm (breach to muzzle)! The only way to compare handguns unbiased is with overall size in mind. You are better off concealing 1911 than a 4" revolver in 357. The only fair comparison is 4" 9mm vs 2" 357.

Above is your original and unedited post. Nowhere in your original claim that the 9mm was superior did you mention gun size. Edit: I was thinking barrel length when you said "same sized". The O/P however did. I guess you are talking about appropriate equipment to do a job. I thought we were talking ballistics. My bad. But if you still think the 9mm is the end all-be all, read up on the Miami Massacre. You will see that the main perp was hit early on with a 9mm. It was a lethal hit, meaning had they shot him in the operating room and immediately started surgery, he was going to die. IOW, he was DRT. But he managed to kill 2 and wound 5 FBI agents before he quit shooting. He was hit several more times among all this and still managed to use a mini-14 and two .357 revolvers for about 4 minutes. This spawned the most intensive ballistics study the FBI has ever performed and led to the adoption of the 10mm. Which subsequently led to the .40SW.

 

[MoBoost]

The fact is, in the same sized 9mm Luger pistol delivers more energy than 357mag revolver

Above is your original and unedited post. Nowhere in your original claim that the 9mm was superior did you mention gun size.

WOW .... just wow ....

The O/P however did.

I've got question about self defense and revolver rounds. In the old .38 / .357 debate, I'm not sure I get it. The comparison argument of 9mm vs 45ACP makes sense to me as the .45 makes a clearly bigger hole. .357 doesn't make a bigger hole than .38, but has more power. Is the power difference truly as big a deal as a bigger hole size would be?
Not denying here, just wanting to learn.

Where....

I guess you are talking about appropriate equipment to do a job. I thought we were talking ballistics. My bad. But if you still think the 9mm is the end all-be all, read up on the Miami Massacre. You will see that the main perp was hit early on with a 9mm. It was a lethal hit, meaning had they shot him in the operating room and immediately started surgery, he was going to die. IOW, he was DRT. But he managed to kill 2 and wound 5 FBI agents before he quit shooting. He was hit several more times among all this and still managed to use a mini-14 and two .357 revolvers for about 4 minutes. This spawned the most intensive ballistics study the FBI has ever performed and led to the adoption of the 10mm. Which subsequently led to the .40SW.

According to this theory we shouldn't be hunting with anything less than 20mm cannon - I am not sure how it will work, but I'm 100% sure there are plenty of documented stories where deer walked way from anything shoulder fired. Knee jerk reactions are just not my thing.

I don't think 110-year-old Luger is an end all - 7n31 might be ....