Blackhorn 209 questions (Muzzleloader)

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I picked up some of this stuff yesterday.

According to Chuck Hawks, when measured volumetrically, using the T/C U-View measure, "100 grains" of black powder volume of it equals 66.8 grains by weight.

If I'm wanting to work up a load for my MLs, starting low and working up for accuracy, and if I want to start with the equivalent of 50 grains of black powder, would I start with "50 grains" as shown volumetrically on my T/C U-View, or "74.9 gr" volumetrically, which would equate to 50 actual grains by weight? In other words, is this black powder "equivalent", equivalent by weight, or equivalent by volume?

Anyone know? What about other BP substitutes - are they *generally speaking* equivalent by weight or volume to BP?

Thanks.


Edit: Evidently, from the velocities gained, the "equivalency standard" (for lack of a better phrase), is much closer to the volumetric measurement, not the weight equivalency (which of course is technically incorrect since 'grains' is a unit of weight measurement):

http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_breakthrough.htm

See, he says he got *roughly* similar velocities from 100 gr goex BP, and 66.8 gr of BH 209 (which is 100 gr volumetrically). So I guess I'll start with "50 grains" volumetrically in my U-View (which will be 33.4 actual grains).

It would be "74.9 grains" measured volumetrically if the equivalency existed on a true weight to weight scale. (50 grains= 50 grains=50 grains)

 

[Shadowrider]

I picked up some of this stuff yesterday.

According to Chuck Hawks, when measured volumetrically, using the T/C U-View measure, "100 grains" of black powder volume of it equals 66.8 grains by weight.

If I'm wanting to work up a load for my MLs, starting low and working up for accuracy, and if I want to start with the equivalent of 50 grains of black powder, would I start with "50 grains" as shown volumetrically on my T/C U-View, or "74.9 gr" volumetrically, which would equate to 50 actual grains by weight? In other words, is this black powder "equivalent", equivalent by weight, or equivalent by volume?

Anyone know? What about other BP substitutes - are they *generally speaking* equivalent by weight or volume to BP?

Thanks.

Well using you stated 100 grains (volume) actually weighs 66.8 grains, so the factor would be for 1 grain volume is .668.

So a 50 grains equivalent of volume should actually weigh 33.4 grains? (.668*50)

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Right, that's the basic ratio (.668 : 1). But if we were to actually measure 33.4 grains on the U-View (volumetrically), then we'd end up with only 33.4 "volumetric equivalent" grains of black powder (which is only 22.31 actual grains of weight of BH 209).

(Obviously I'm trying to avoid having to weigh charges and taking the scale to the range, by getting the volumetric equivalent. But first I have to determine the conversion standard. Pouring powder into the scale bin would be a real hootenanny in the wind at the range).

I read that BH 209 is actually smokeless powder. They just had to find a way to come up with a smokeless that, with the same volume, created the same or less pressure than BP, so people wouldn't blow themselves up measuring volumetrically (as people are bound to do). Basically, it's a "space hog", slow-burning smokeless powder, which is both legal in Oklahoma to hunt with, and safe in non-Savage rifles.

From the velocities gained, it sounds to me like this BH 209 is similar to Triple 7 (a bit hotter than BP) - my guess that you probably would NOT want to exceed these (measured volumetrically), to be safe:

-- more than 120/125 grains in modern 150-gr BP rated inlines
-- more than 90/100 grains in traditional/primitives, or CVA & Traditions inlines

 

[HiredHand]

I think you already answered your own question but I understand that BP substiutes are equivalent by volume.

 

[two-click]

I shoot the black horn 209 and measure by volume 100 grs..Don't forget when your ready to clean you rifle use regular (hopes,rem. oil etc. ) cleaning solvents NOT soapy water or any other BP cleaning solvents BH 209 works great for me.I shoot it in a T/C triumph and a CVA accura

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Don't forget when your ready to clean you rifle use regular (hopes,rem. oil etc. ) cleaning solvents NOT soapy water or any other BP cleaning solvents

Thanks for the reminder - what would happen if I cleaned it with "BP cleaning solvents", not soap & water, do you think?

 

[criticalbass]

Before I went to a smokeless muzzleloader, I found that Triple Seven pellets were what worked best for my. Not a lot higher priced than loose BP substitutes, cleaner, and available in enough weight/power variations to enable an adequate number of combinations. Finally settled on 2 50 grain? pellets in my now sold CVA Elkhorn, and with 240 grain powerband bullets it made basically one hole at 50 yards. Most of my ML hunting was pretty close range. I have tried three of the 50s (gun was a .50 cal), but didn't like the recoil.

My lease now has some long range areas, and the smokeless ML will shoot pretty flat and real hard out past 200 yards. Not legal in every state, but okay in OK. If you think you might be interested in this for 2011, here's a link to the guy who built mine. (I'm not crazy about Savage's SML) http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

Some of the newer pellets don't smoke as much. Very helpful when you have to wait for the smoke to clear to see if the deer is dead, and especially helpful when you need to see which way it ran. Also, I have read that some of the newest formulations are not nearly as corrosive as the other BP substitutes.

Cleaning may be the real reason I went to SML--once a season whether it needs it or not. Actually, 2500 fps with a 250 grain Barnes slug is the biggest reason. I put a 30 mm Burris Euro scope on it since it's real good in low light and most of the bucks I see are right at the end of shooting hours when it's almost dark.

I suspect you already have some small plastic tubes for pre measured/weighed powder charges, but if not, get some. CB

 

[two-click]

I think it will gum up your bore.

 

[dennishoddy]

I think you already answered your own question but I understand that BP substiutes are equivalent by volume.

Never measure BP by weight.
Always do a volumetric weight. Different consistancies of BP and its substitues = different weights.
For instance: black powder is sold and specified using two parameters, its weight and the size of the granules.

Here is a little something I gleaned for another site. It refers to a cannon, but is applicable in a smaller "shoulder fired cannon".

The granule size making up the powder is referred to as the fg number. It correlates to the size of the screen mesh which it falls through for sorting. Ranges are "cannon" (very course), fg (1fg), ffg (2fg), fffg (3fg), and ffffg (4fg) which is very fine. Small particles, higher fg numbers burn much faster. The resulting explosion from very fine powder can cause a cannon barrel to explode. The fg grade (1f) is the correct size for small cannon however ffg (2f) is ok.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Thank you Dennis - very good info!