Is it time? AR-15 question

[SMS]

Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule in the Trump thread to help out, dude.

I wasn't getting enough arguing in over there. Figured I'd come see what you stirred up. In this case it's the "They're all the same" and the "Just as good" gomers LOL.

I almost dove into the piston crowd after a deployment with guys who ran 416's....but I've since found my center again and have zero qualms about running a quality gun with a DI system.

 

[zghorner]

Ive had AKs jam on me more than ARs. Granted ive owned and shot a lot more AKs but what im getting at is they aren't immune to malfunction.

I was once a die hard AK (& FAL) guy and still love and shoot them regularly...but im kinda sorta starting to think the AR platform is better. Accuracy, lighter, ease of mounting optics, low recoil/muzzle climb, left side/rear charging handle, selector switch location and ease of use, straight in mags vs the rock n lock AK and FAL style...I love the 7.62x39 cartridge for the AK but I love the 5.56 just as much for the AR. Both make sense for each gun (to me).

everyone wants to talk about this and that assault weapon for SHTF...I tend to think the long range precision gun (paired with someone who knows how to use it) will rule if S really does HTF.

Also someone said they don't like how you have to run the AR wet for it to function properly...a small bottle of oil in your pack will go a loooooong way. long enough that im sure you will stumble upon some since it happens to be in every car and truck in the world.

But yea, once again it is time to buy an AR-15

 

[Shadowrider]

The main difference; and in my experience the only real difference, is the DI system needs to be run wet. I have done work, and worked with the AR FOW and AK series for almost 3 decades. The notion that a modern, spec built DI AR needs to be kept clean to run is a fallacy. Do yourself a favor and look up "BCM Filthy 14". As long as the working parts are serviceable,(same as any other weapon), lube is the biggest reliability factor related to the AR itself that needs attention.

Damn near every serious shooter* I personally know that runs an AR DI platform eschews cleaning them except to inspect parts for wear and breakage. They perform these checks at intervals commensurate with their firing schedule. The harsher it is, the more often they do it but none of them are doing it at less than 1000 rounds between inspections. What they all do, is keep them well lubed. What they all experience, are reliable weapons.

According to my experience this is correct. I ran my bone stock M&P 15 past 3000 rounds over about a year without so much as disengaging the takedown pin. What I did do was give it some doctored up synthetic engine oil through the holes in the bolt that get to the gas rings and on the locking lugs regularly. I think it was smoother cycling all gunked up! After I cleaned it, it didn't feel as smooth cycling. Go figure...

 

[sh00ter]

What will your 3000k round AR look like upon take down? How many times would you have to oil it to keep it reliable in between...I think that has been my argument...those are the caveats...the Sig rifle is the "glock" of rifles...that's all I'm saying...no DI gas to burn out the lube = stays lubed/clean longer...and with the gas adjustment, you simply turn a knob if it got sluggish under SHTF conditions. Piston guns designed for peasants to fight with no working knowledge of maintenance...DI designed for the military and my old man told me how much the Marines made him clean/lube even his M1/M14's and 1911 so I know that is probably still the case with the M4. I also have a family member who went through basic a couple years ago and he said the range master walked the line with Breakfree CLP...I believe him.

In addition to Senator Coburn's issues with the DI M4, there is plenty of other evidence the military and other experts know there is an issue; and I be willing to bet some guys got hurt or killed due to this design under adverse conditions (SHTF):

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

"US Army Ranger Capt. Nate Self, whose M4 jammed into uselessness during a 2002 firefight after their MH-47 Chinook was shot down in Afghanistan’s Shah-i-kot Mountains, offers another case. He won a Silver Star that day – with another soldier’s gun – and his comments in the Army Times article appear to agree that there is a problem with the current M4 design and specifications.

SOCOM appears to agree as well. While US Special Operations Command is moving ahead on their own SCAR rifle (also piston) program with FN Herstal, they’re also significant users of the M4 Carbine’s SOPMOD version. By the time Capt. Self was fighting of al-Qaeda/Taliban enemies in Afghanistan with a broken weapon, Dellta Force had already turned to Heckler & Koch for a fix that would preserve the M4 but remove its problems. One of which is heat build-up and gas from its operating mechanism that dries out some lubricants, and helps open the way for sand damage.

In response, H&K replaced Colt’s “gas-tube” system with a short-stroke piston system that eliminates carbon blow-back into the chamber, and also reduces the heat problem created by the super-hot gases used to cycle the M4."

"Ironically, even Colt may have a better system ready to go. In a letter to Army Times magazine, Colt COO James R. Battaglini (US Marine Corps Maj. Gen., ret.) said:

“The gas piston system in the H&K 416 is not a new system. Rifles were being designed with these systems in the 1920’s. Colt proposed a piston operated weapon to the Army in the early 1960’s. Today Colt Defense has the ability and expertise to manufacture in great numbers piston system carbines of exceptional quality should the U.S. military services initiate a combat requirement for this type of weapon”

Also seem to recall a few years back the Marines were going to buy a bunch of the LWRC piston rifles; this one perhaps but I can't recall:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LWRC_M6

 

[dennishoddy]

"Jamming" is not an AR problem. Its not even a cleaning problem. Its not a DI problem. Its not luck either. It's a poorly built gun problem.

If your AR malfunctions, clean or dirty, it's not a good gun. Period.

There are ammo issues that will cause malfunctions in Good guns, but those are 100% reloader issues.

 

[dennishoddy]

Ive had AKs jam on me more than ARs. Granted ive owned and shot a lot more AKs but what im getting at is they aren't immune to malfunction.

I was once a die hard AK (& FAL) guy and still love and shoot them regularly...but im kinda sorta starting to think the AR platform is better. Accuracy, lighter, ease of mounting optics, low recoil/muzzle climb, left side/rear charging handle, selector switch location and ease of use, straight in mags vs the rock n lock AK and FAL style...I love the 7.62x39 cartridge for the AK but I love the 5.56 just as much for the AR. Both make sense for each gun (to me).

everyone wants to talk about this and that assault weapon for SHTF...I tend to think the long range precision gun (paired with someone who knows how to use it) will rule if S really does HTF.

Also someone said they don't like how you have to run the AR wet for it to function properly...a small bottle of oil in your pack will go a loooooong way. long enough that im sure you will stumble upon some since it happens to be in every car and truck in the world.

But yea, once again it is time to buy an AR-15

I've seen several head to head comparisons of AK vs AR. The AR is always the winner in most categories except one. It's the time when the barrel goes into your hands to be used as a head banger. The Tupperware stock is more fragile than the AK stock.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Also seem to recall a few years back the Marines were going to buy a bunch of the LWRC piston rifles; this one perhaps but I can't recall:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LWRC_M6

The Marines bought their new M27 IAR from HK. http://marinesmagazine.dodlive.mil/2012/05/16/m27-iar/

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

What will your 3000k round AR look like upon take down? How many times would you have to oil it to keep it reliable in between...

Here is an AR after 15,000 rounds of Wolf without cleaning, just a shot of lube every 1000 rounds.

 

[Perplexed]

Here is an AR after 15,000 rounds of Wolf without cleaning, just a shot of lube every 1000 rounds.

Oh look! $4000+ worth of gunk!

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Oh look! $4000+ worth of gunk!

LOL