Just how good is the xbow

[dennishoddy]

I was browsing the ODW website, and landed on the McAAp site.
They have controlled hunts that result in several pope and
young bucks taken every year.
Here is the deal..... There is one hunt with XBows for the disabled. Scopes etc are allowed.

The rest of the hunts are with recurve, or traditional bow only....no sights, nothing.

Guess what...the Xbow takes less than the traditional bows.
I'm thinking we need to make the traditional bowmen a seperate season at they are way too proficient!! They are killing all of our deer!
OMG! Gloom and Doom!!!

When you view the site, the first archery is the disabled hunt. The only one that allows Xbows with unlimited accesories.

http://www.mcaapcontrolledhunts.com/

 

[cvrx4]

I think it has more to do with the fact that the people are DISABLED. I mean they might not be as able to be still, climb up in a tree, shoot even a xbow due to their handicap. I think that your example is a poor representation. Look at the thread and the article concerning the quite short bear season for data going the other way.

 

[Buzzgun]

It really has more to do with the fact that it is the first hunt of the year and it is usually still to hot for good deer movement.

 

[RidgeHunter]

They are running 275+ hunters through the regular hunts, 100 or less for the phys. challenged. I think that has a lot to do with it.

Plus it's the worst hunting weekend of all of them. If you notice, kill ratio goes up as the rut nears.

They've done the studies (and used to allow compounds), compound success ratios would force them to drastically reduce hunter numbers.....x-bows at Mac and it would only be a handful of hunters getting to take advantage of it. I'm talking 1/4 or less (probably way less) of what is drawn now with stickbows. It's to special a place to deny that many people the oppurtunity to hunt there. That's why it's stickbow only.

 

[Buzzgun]

It's stickbow only because the commander is a big traditional equipment fan, or, at least that's the way it was when it was first changed to a traditional equipment hunt.

Don't see how allowing other equipment would "deny that many people the oppurtunity to hunt there"?? By your reasoning, how many people are denied the opportunity to hunt there because they don't use traditional equipment??

Granted, if the success ratio went up with modern equipment, fewer hunts might be offered, but that doesn't "deny" anybody anything.

It will be interesting to see how they do the hunts next year since there isn't a limitation on who can use a crossbow. Will they still have a separate crossbow hunt for those with disabilities?? Or, will they allow those with disabilities to use a crossbow during the regular hunt??

I always thought it was unfair to stick disabled hunters in the worst week of the season instead of allowing them to hunt with a crossbow during the regular hunts.

 

[RidgeHunter]

It's stickbow only because the commander is a big traditional equipment fan, or, at least that's the way it was when it was first changed to a traditional equipment hunt.

Don't see how allowing other equipment would "deny that many people the oppurtunity to hunt there"?? By your reasoning, how many people are denied the opportunity to hunt there because they don't use traditional equipment??

Granted, if the success ratio went up with modern equipment, fewer hunts might be offered, but that doesn't "deny" anybody anything.

I always thought it was unfair to stick disabled hunters in the worst week of the season instead of allowing them to hunt with a crossbow during the regular hunts.

It's pretty simple. The kill ratio was too high with compounds to allow the desired number of hunters on base. With trad, it allows just about anybody to get in there at least once. 25 tags vs. 275 tags a weekend. Simple math. Noting to explain. That does "deny" thousands upon thousands of people to ever set foot on base with bow in hand. Again, very simple math.

I believe you are wrong on "why it was changed". Deer management is a numbers game. Don't read too much into it. Call Bill Starry or Ryan Toby and talk to them.

It will be interesting to see how they do the hunts next year since there isn't a limitation on who can use a crossbow. Will they still have a separate crossbow hunt for those with disabilities?? Or, will they allow those with disabilities to use a crossbow during the regular hunt??

X-bows are allowed in regular season, that doesn't mean you can use them at MCAAP. MCAAP is a trad hunt (except for the disabled). Nothing will change. What gave you that idea? Compounds have been legal to use, didn't mean I could take it to MCAPP. MCAAP is a controlled hunt.

 

[Buzzgun]

It's pretty simple. The kill ratio was too high with compounds to allow the desired number of hunters on base. With trad, it allows just about anybody to get in there at least once. 25 tags vs. 275 tags a weekend. Simple math. Noting to explain. That does "deny" thousands upon thousands of people to ever set foot on base with bow in hand. Again, very simple math.

I believe you are wrong on "why it was changed". Deer management is a numbers game. Don't read too much into it. Call Bill Starry or Ryan Toby and talk to them.



X-bows are allowed in regular season, that doesn't mean you can use them at MCAAP. MCAAP is a trad hunt (except for the disabled). Nothing will change. What gave you that idea? Compounds have been legal to use, didn't mean I could take it to MCAPP. MCAAP is a controlled hunt.

I've hunted McAlester twice, back when you could use compounds and I KNOW there weren't just 25 tags per weekend, so maybe you need to check your math! In 1988, the last year for compounds, there were 1380 hunters, in 1989, the first year for traditional equipment restrictions, there were 1135 hunters. From 1983 to 1988, the average number of hunters was 1297 with an average success rate was 17.8%, from 1989 to 1995, the average number of hunters was 1323 and the average success rate dropped to an average of 10.7%. So, the traditional equipment restrictions did not provide additional opportunities for hunters as you suggest, it simply lowered the success rate which wasn't very high to begin with.

Again, by your reasoning, anyone who doesn't get drawn for a special hunt is "denied" the opportunity. I guess I have a problem with your terminology, not drawing a tag, or offering fewer tags doesn't deny anyone anything if everyone has the same opportunity to draw the tags available.

I remember when McAlester went to traditional equipment and I sure don't remember it being because people were killing too many deer! As I remember it, the base commander was a big traditionalist and wanted the hunt restricted to traditional equipment. Why do you think they hold the Southern Plains Traditional Shoot at McAlester??? It certainly has NOTHING to do with deer management!

I have also been to the crossbow hunt a few years ago, I wasn't hunting, I went as a helper for my dad. Very few people on that hunt required special assistance. Almost everyone there could have hunted, with their crossbows, during the other hunts, but the officials at McAlester don't want crossbow hunters in the field during the best times to hunt. If you doubt that, ask Bill Starry why they don't have the "disabled" hunt on the second weekend in November. They don't want crossbows on the facility during the rut!

I don't have the idea that anything will change at McAlester, I was just wondering out loud if the new crossbow regulations will have any effect on the way they run the hunts. I seriously doubt that anything will change because McAlester is a military installation and has it's own rules.

I'm not against traditional equipment, I hunted with a recurve for many years by choice. I just don't like it when the officials at McAlester act like they are supporting disabled hunters but don't allow them the same opportunity to hunt during the rut.

 

[RidgeHunter]

I've hunted McAlester twice, back when you could use compounds and I KNOW there weren't just 25 tags per weekend, so maybe you need to check your math! In 1988, the last year for compounds, there were 1380 hunters, in 1989, the first year for traditional equipment restrictions, there were 1135 hunters. From 1983 to 1988, the average number of hunters was 1297 with an average success rate was 17.8%, from 1989 to 1995, the average number of hunters was 1323 and the average success rate dropped to an average of 10.7%. So, the traditional equipment restrictions did not provide additional opportunities for hunters as you suggest, it simply lowered the success rate which wasn't very high to begin with.

My 25 was not a literal number, it was an example. I just go in from the woods and I'm tired, I'm not being as clear or logical as I could be. Sorry.
Then we could go into an 80's compound bow technology and accessories vs. what we have nowadays.

There is no way allowing compounds (or x-bows) on the base would not up the buck kill numbers a good amount. Enough to lessen the number of hunters drawn.
A couple % points of buck harvest numbers makes a big difference.

Of course they don't want x-bows on the facility during the rut. 100 hunters in there with x-bows would waylay the bucks during the rut. I know that, Starry knows that, everybody knows that. They are not hiding it.
Any significant increase in the amount of bucks taken necessitates fewer hunters on base. Handicapped or not.

The Army does not have to allow hunting at all. The volunteers don't have to work it. I'm a guest there, I'm just happy they let me in. I say "sir" that weekend more than I do when I'm talking to a cop on the side of the road.

Bottom line, all this "opportunity' talk we hear about is tailored to our interest. ME INCLUDED OFTEN TIMES, I'LL ADMIT IT. "Not fair to the handicapped because they don't get to hunt the rut." Ok, sounds fine. Put them in there during the rut, go over buck quota....less hunters next year. Now those guys have an axe to grind. "Why not as many tags drawn as last year? We've had them forever!"

You can't please all of the people all of the time. At least with MCAAP, they let a lot of us in to try our luck. If only to complain about it on the internet when we get home.

Summary of things I have said. There are only 2:

Fact: Compounds and x-bows would make them decrease hunter numbers. Per the biologist anyways. I believe him.

MY OPINION: I like lower success and more tags drawn. Personally.

 

[RidgeHunter]

Here is the study in case anyone can't find it. Worth a look. The buck kill numbers speak for themselves.

https://fp.auburn.edu/sfws/ditchkoff/PDF%20publications/1996%20-%20SEAFWA.pdf

Recent trends towards quality deer management have required creativity in designing harvest strategies that will reduce
buck harvests and allow more males to reach maturity. These goals can be accomplished either by reducing hunter success rates or limiting the number of hunters in
an area. This study suggests that the substitution of traditional for compound archery equipment can reduce the number of bucks harvested without a comparable reduction
in hunters.

 

[Buzzgun]

Here is the study in case anyone can't find it. Worth a look. The buck kill numbers speak for themselves.

https://fp.auburn.edu/sfws/ditchkoff/PDF%20publications/1996%20-%20SEAFWA.pdf

From the study you referenced:

We had originally hypothesized that mature bucks (>3.5 years old) would be more susceptible to compound than traditional archers due to limitations (e.g., range and accuracy) associated with traditional archery equipment. However, the proportion of mature males in the harvest did not change with the switch to traditional archery hunts.

Also from the study you referenced:

From 1983 to 1988 (compounds legal) the percentage of male deer harvested averaged 58.2% of the total harvest.

From 1989 to 1995 (traditional equipment) the percentage of male deer harvested averaged 55.6% of the total harvest.

So, the switch to traditional equipment lowered the success rate, but did not significantly change the % of bucks taken.

If the success rate was lowered, but the percentage of bucks taken was basically unchanged, all they accomplished was killing fewer deer. They did not change the buck to doe ratio.

If they REALLY wanted to reduce buck harvest, they wouldn't have ANY hunts during the rut!