LAX victim bled for 33 minutes

[Glocktogo]

Ahhhh ... I see ... That sheds a LOT of answers to the questions I had. And you are right -- I can't imagine that I would just assume anyone was dead just because they were shot without laying hands on them to make sure. That just does not make sense to me at all ... I don't know if anyone else has said this to you, but I will now -- I'm sorry for your loss. I know you didn't know him personally, but I know how any LEO death affects GC. I have no doubt you feel the same way about you fellow officers. You are in my prayers, sir. Stay safe.

Thanks. It's especially tough because I have a different opinion on how security should be handled, particulalrly at attractive targets like LAX. It might not have saved Hernandez, but it might've kept more from getting shot. It's unknowable at this point, but I hope this drives some change on the subject.

FWIW, I was at SAT on Saturday. I saw four armed DHS agents and one local LEO before I made it to the ticket counter.

 

[cmhbob]

Coroner is now saying he died within 5 minutes of being shot.

A preliminary coroner’s report said a bullet hit Hernandez’s aorta, which would have caused the massive bleeding, according to a law enforcement official familiar with the findings. The official was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation and spoke to AP on condition of anonymity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...19f112-5243-11e3-9ee6-2580086d8254_story.html

 

[tRidiot]

When I retired in 2007, the policy in Okc was that if there is a shooting call, the ambulance and FD stage a few blocks away till the PD declares the scene safe for them to enter.

When I was riding the bus, there was no way in hell we were going on-scene unless we knew it was safe. You can't save ANYBODY if you're dead. And no way in hell I'd ask any of my medics now to do it. And if they do, you can bet I'm gonna have a chat with them and we'll talk about it. Not to berate them, but to find out the true on-the-scene circumstances and hopefully we can all learn from the right/wrong decision of the moment.

DHS has bet the farm on the houstonready.org video "Run, Hide, Fight". Active shooter has been an evolving paradigm since Columbine. No two incidents are identical, so mass training is never going to fit perfectly. The real issue is a failure to train for critical thinking, assessment and survival skills. The "OODA LOOP" as it were. It starts with zero tolerance policies in schools and continues throughout life as a dependency on government response.

To put it bluntly, if you're waiting on the government to save your ass, you're backing into an early grave.

Abso-freaking-lutely!

Coroner is now saying he died within 5 minutes of being shot.

Yeah, so all the hoopla is over whether the guy thought he "felt a faint pulse"? Meh... I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon sayin' the guy was still alive at all (obviously we now know he probably wasn't). I can't tell you how many times healthcare providers in a controlled environment with monitoring equipment and multiple people checking have difficulty determining if there is actually a pulse. It's not inadequacy or poor training or anything else... it's just frigging hard, sometimes. "I think I've got a femoral pulse, check the carotid! Hmmmm, I can't tell, what does the monitor show? Someone get the Doppler unit to listen." It's just how it is...

My experience during responses is that officers will not touch anyone who has any kind of medical problem unless they know them personally. They are very scared of blood borne pathogens and communicable disease.

I don't know... maybe that's a bigger-city thing. Most of the cops I know will render aid in a reasonable manner, many have done CPR for us prior to any medical personel arriving on the scene, and I remember one cop doing mouth-to-mouth (not so many years ago) on a little girl and literally saved her life. I'm certain his efforts made the difference for her in the longrun. Kudos to our officers out there in the line of fire, and while I would never second-guess any officer's choice NOT to participate in whatever way, I am grateful for those who can and do.

 

[SMS]

Yeah, so all the hoopla is over whether the guy thought he "felt a faint pulse"? Meh... I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon sayin' the guy was still alive at all (obviously we now know he probably wasn't).

Not exactly. It appears the hoopla, even with the latest info from the coroner, is that nearly 25 minutes after the shooting stopped the guy was still laying on the ground recieving zero medical attention because an LEO declared him "Dead".

I'm not a cop or a medic, but I know it's not within an LEO's authority or training to make such a determination. If you're a responding officer, make the scene reasonably safe...strongpoint or whatever...the victim was feet from an exit...and get qualified medical personnel to the scene. If you are a bystander with any sort of training, pick one person and help them until you are forced to do othewise. If you are a victim, help yourself if at all possible (not that this guy could've)...Self aid and Buddy Care works.

There were systemic issues playing into the confusion at LAX for sure...territorial pissings between LAPD and the Airport Police (notice the finger pointing between the two seperate police forces in the articles). Who was in charge, what was their plan for getting aid to victims etc...hopefully some good comes from it.