LAX victim bled for 33 minutes

[Fyrtwuck]

When I retired in 2007, the policy in Okc was that if there is a shooting call, the ambulance and FD stage a few blocks away till the PD declares the scene safe for them to enter.

My experience during responses is that officers will not touch anyone who has any kind of medical problem unless they know them personally. They are very scared of blood borne pathogens and communicable disease.

 

[dennishoddy]

When I retired in 2007, the policy in Okc was that if there is a shooting call, the ambulance and FD stage a few blocks away till the PD declares the scene safe for them to enter.

My experience during responses is that officers will not touch anyone who has any kind of medical problem unless they know them personally. They are very scared of blood borne pathogens and communicable disease.

I'm not a first responder, but this is the main reason this happens. They are not paid to rescue under fire, or danger. If they did anyway, their job might be in jeopardy by their employer.

 

[SMS]

I'm not a first responder, but this is the main reason this happens. They are not paid to rescue under fire, or danger. If they did anyway, their job might be in jeopardy by their employer.

Yes. Lots of complexities involving secure scenes and first responder duties. From what I'm reading, some cities/regions are experimenting with police escort of better equipped med teams (body armor and active shooter specific trainng) and the concept of "strongpointing" with med treatment at a warm scene. But that's not my world. What I'm getting at is that why weren't fellow citizens the real first responders here? During the Boston Marathon bombing we saw waves of people rushing in to help the victims...but not LAX?

Traveling mindset? Shock of being snapped out of your chair and magazine while waiting on the plane? Fear of more shooters? Herd mentality and/or being forced to leave the scene at gunpoint?

 

[BadgeBunny]

Yes. Lots of complexities involving secure scenes and first responder duties. From what I'm reading, some cities/regions are experimenting with police escort of better equipped med teams (body armor and active shooter specific trainng) and the concept of "strongpointing" with med treatment at a warm scene. But that's not my world. What I'm getting at is that why weren't fellow citizens the real first responders here? During the Boston Marathon bombing we saw waves of people rushing in to help the victims...but not LAX?

Traveling mindset? Shock of being snapped out of your chair and magazine while waiting on the plane? Fear of more shooters? Herd mentality and/or being forced to leave the scene at gunpoint?

But ... intitally anyway, were they really FORCED from the scene?? I heard folks giving interviews to reporters saying that TSA agents were running away, along with the passengers. I realize they are not armed but DANG ... Not one single person in the hallway that day thought about anything else but RUNNING ... That doesn't bode well for the human race, if you ask me ...

I may be being too harsh but I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about self-preservation ... Of course, I've never been in LAX either, so I'm not familiar with any places that might or might not have been available for cover.

I might buy the "herd mentality" thing -- but not for the employees at the airport. They KNEW this guy -- by name -- punched the same clock he did, took lunch breaks with him, had the same wife/kid/job/life ups and downs he did ... That we all do really, but THEY KNEW HIM ... I sure don't know what the answer is for anybody else. I just hope he was out cold and did not spend his last half-hour on this earth wondering why no one was helping him ...

 

[Glocktogo]

But ... intitally anyway, were they really FORCED from the scene?? I heard folks giving interviews to reporters saying that TSA agents were running away, along with the passengers. I realize they are not armed but DANG ... Not one single person in the hallway that day thought about anything else but RUNNING ... That doesn't bode well for the human race, if you ask me ...

I may be being too harsh but I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about self-preservation ... Of course, I've never been in LAX either, so I'm not familiar with any places that might or might not have been available for cover.

I might buy the "herd mentality" thing -- but not for the employees at the airport. They KNEW this guy -- by name -- punched the same clock he did, took lunch breaks with him, had the same wife/kid/job/life ups and downs he did ... That we all do really, but THEY KNEW HIM ... I sure don't know what the answer is for anybody else. I just hope he was out cold and did not spend his last half-hour on this earth wondering why no one was helping him ...

DHS has bet the farm on the houstonready.org video "Run, Hide, Fight". Active shooter has been an evolving paradigm since Columbine. No two incidents are identical, so mass training is never going to fit perfectly. The real issue is a failure to train for critical thinking, assessment and survival skills. The "OODA LOOP" as it were. It starts with zero tolerance policies in schools and continues throughout life as a dependency on government response.

To put it bluntly, if you're waiting on the government to save your ass, you're backing into an early grave.

 

[0311]

Tough break for Papa-San...

 

[BadgeBunny]

DHS has bet the farm on the houstonready.org video "Run, Hide, Fight". Active shooter has been an evolving paradigm since Columbine. No two incidents are identical, so mass training is never going to fit perfectly. The real issue is a failure to train for critical thinking, assessment and survival skills. The "OODA LOOP" as it were. It starts with zero tolerance policies in schools and continues throughout life as a dependency on government response.

To put it bluntly, if you're waiting on the government to save your ass, you're backing into an early grave.

But my point was not about the government's inability to save him (which sadly does not surprise me ) but about the people who KNEW HIM leaving him there to die.

 

[Glocktogo]

But my point was not about the government's inability to save him (which sadly does not surprise me ) but about the people who KNEW HIM leaving him there to die.

They probably weren't anywhere close to render aid, having ran from the shooter. At that point, they wouldnt be allowed to return to the area until the scene was cleared. I have not read an official report yet, but there is a claim that he wasn't treated immediately because an LAX LEO thought he was already dead:

Marshall McClain, president of the Los Angeles Airport Peace Officers Assn., also raised the possibility Friday that medical attention was delayed because Los Angeles Police Department Officer John Long told other responders Hernandez was dead.

Police broadcast over their radios that a suspect was in custody at 9:25 a.m., five minutes after Hernandez was shot in the chest. That’s when Long checked on Hernandez several times, repeatedly telling officers who came by from various agencies that he was dead, according to one of the law enforcement officials.

Officers from multiple agencies bent down to check on Hernandez before moving on; no officers rendered first aid on scene, according to surveillance video reviewed by the officials.

Airport police who came to check on Hernandez after attending to other victims were told by Long, “He’s dead,” McClain said.



“‘What do you mean he’s dead?’” an airport officer replied, according to McClain. “‘If he’s dead, whatever, we can’t make that determination.’”

After the airport officer found what he thought was a faint pulse, he took Hernandez in a wheelchair to an ambulance, said McClain, who gathered his account by talking to the airport officers involved.

Trauma surgeon David Plurad said Hernandez had no signs of life when he arrived at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center. Doctors worked for about an hour to revive him despite significant blood loss.

It’s not known when Hernandez died or if immediate medical attention could have saved his life, but McClain said unless a person is decapitated, it must be up to a doctor to declare someone dead.

It’s also unclear how the officer determined Hernandez was dead or if he was qualified to do so. Long refused to comment.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/11/15/ap-tsa-officer-bled-for-33-minutes-in-lax-shooting/

If the official report determines this information is accurate, then Officer Long should lose his job and QI would not apply, because he acted outside the scope of his employment or authority. I truly hope this report is inaccurate. To thing a fellow employee died needlessly due to the in-actions of a brother in blue is simply unacceptable.

 

[BadgeBunny]

They probably weren't anywhere close to render aid, having ran from the shooter. At that point, they wouldnt be allowed to return to the area until the scene was cleared. I have not read an official report yet, but there is a claim that he wasn't treated immediately because an LAX LEO thought he was already dead:



http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/11/15/ap-tsa-officer-bled-for-33-minutes-in-lax-shooting/

If the official report determines this information is accurate, then Officer Long should lose his job and QI would not apply, because he acted outside the scope of his employment or authority. I truly hope this report is inaccurate. To thing a fellow employee died needlessly due to the in-actions of a brother in blue is simply unacceptable.

Ahhhh ... I see ... That sheds a LOT of answers to the questions I had. And you are right -- I can't imagine that I would just assume anyone was dead just because they were shot without laying hands on them to make sure. That just does not make sense to me at all ... I don't know if anyone else has said this to you, but I will now -- I'm sorry for your loss. I know you didn't know him personally, but I know how any LEO death affects GC. I have no doubt you feel the same way about you fellow officers. You are in my prayers, sir. Stay safe.

 

[subprep]

Wussified nation of wusses.

this. they are even wussifying the NFL. It's getting ridiculous, I don't understand the movement to turn our men into a bunch of girlymen what is the point? Domination through weakness?