Rise of the Warrior Cop

[cjjtulsa]

Seems like some folks think they have a "right" to retaliate when a search or arrest warrant is conducted. They'd be much better off to simply comply, and let the police do their business. Some on here act like the police may turn into a paramilitary hit squad.

http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/weaver.shtml

I hope there's a special place in hell set aside for all of the "LEOs" involved in the Weaver raid.

 

[264killer]

Least we for get Ruby Ridge. & Waco & & &

 

[henschman]

Ah, counselor, you know good and well that PC for a search does jot equal PC for an arrest.

Not in every case, but the case in the OP involved a woman snitching on her ex for growing marijuana in his house. For a search warrant, you must show a judge that particular evidence of a crime can be found in a particular place. For an arrest warrant, you must show a judge PC that a particular person committed a particular crime. If the judge thought there was PC that the guy had marijuana in his house, that would serve as PC for both a search for the marijuana, and an arrest for the crime of possession of marijuana. They could have done this, but they didn't. Instead, they chose to put everyone's lives at risk, including their own officers, one of whom paid the ultimate price for this decision.

It would seem your second paragraph is simply a tirade of frustration about marijuana being illegal. I haven't read anything on here where force was initiated for on someone for having "a plant". I have read multiple articles where deadly force was used on subjects posing a threat of grievous bodily harm or death. As for moral justification, I didn't know I had to have any. I would lean towards Teddy Roosevelt's

I don't get hard on's for caging people. I'm not into S&M

Not a tirade, just a question. The case in the OP is the one I was talking about when I referred to someone having force initiated against him for having a plant. They bashed in his door, stormed his house with guns, and threw him in a cage, for minding his own business and growing plants on his own property. That is why I say the police were the ones who initiated force. I'm not talking about legality -- I'm talking about morality. When you state that a moral justification isn't required, it is somewhat telling of the moral defensibility of this sort of thing.

 

[Glocktogo]

Your first question was incomplete and loaded, and you know it. What is the threat the subject is displaying? Are there any peripheral targets available? Head shot? Can I, and do I have time to improve my position?
I would argue that Guerena was the one who endangered his child. First, when he got involved in the drug ring. Second when he continued ro live with the child while working in the ring. Third when he brought out the rifle during the warrant. Yes, the child should have been taken into consideration. Was it? Idk, wasn't there. This thinking though, is still shifting the blame from where it truly sits, IMHO. Guerena. Also, in case you didn't read it, the Guerena's were implicated in the double murder of a couple that worked for them.


I never dismissed his door kicking, gun-fighting experience. I simply asked for his qualifications, as he is a self proclaimed law enforcement operations and tactics expert. If he hadn't made that claim, then I wouldn't care. As an aside, I've been lucky enough to meet or know a hand full of the you door kicker, hero types. Most are also great dudes.

touché on the child be the subject of the warrant. Would it please you more if I said "innocent injury or death" instead of innocent danger? I would again claim that this was a failure on the child's parents. They placed him in the situation. How would you sir have simultaneously conducted the three warrants? Do you have all of the facts and circumstances to make this assessment?

The concern I have is when justifications are made. The subject elected to commit a criminal act, therefore forefeiting the safety of his children. So as an (il)logical continuation, we can go point guns at everyone in his home in a high stress situation and if we percieve a threat, fire dozens (if not hundreds) of rounds into the uncleared interior of the home, because it's all the subject's fault.

This is the type of thinking that isn't kosher. In this case, the child's safety wasn't placed high enough in the pecking order. That she escaped with no physical injurues wasn't a matter of careful planning and intel, it was luck. Careful planning would've been to detain Guerena at the mine where he worked and isolate him, then do a knock warrant on the home when he wasn't there to be a threat. Yes it costs valuable LE resources to do it that way. Yet the safety of innocent citizens should demand it.

There is a balance displayed between this and the Waco raid, with Waco depicting the worst possible outcome and the Guerena raid not nearly as bad. In both cases it could've been done more safely and to equal effect. That is ALL I'm saying. We MMQB these events for improvements to the TTP's. Sadly, some of the ones who should be doing the highest level of MMQB'ing, are calling it all good and continuing without improvement. That's bad...Mmmkay?

 

[Glocktogo]

Not in every case, but the case in the OP involved a woman snitching on her ex for growing marijuana in his house. For a search warrant, you must show a judge that particular evidence of a crime can be found in a particular place. For an arrest warrant, you must show a judge PC that a particular person committed a particular crime. If the judge thought there was PC that the guy had marijuana in his house, that would serve as PC for both a search for the marijuana, and an arrest for the crime of possession of marijuana. They could have done this, but they didn't. Instead, they chose to put everyone's lives at risk, including their own officers, one of whom paid the ultimate price for this decision.




Not a tirade, just a question. The case in the OP is the one I was talking about when I referred to someone having force initiated against him for having a plant. They bashed in his door, stormed his house with guns, and threw him in a cage, for minding his own business and growing plants on his own property. That is why I say the police were the ones who initiated force. I'm not talking about legality -- I'm talking about morality. When you state that a moral justification isn't required, it is somewhat telling of the moral defensibility of this sort of thing.

While neither advocating for or against marijuana legalization, it would be interesting to see how/why they determined that he needed to be raided. Was he in fact selling? Did someone who knew he had the plants turn him in? Or was it due to excessive electric usage reported by the utility company for his hydroponics grow? Thermal scan of his house from the air?

 

[caojyn]

While neither advocating for or against marijuana legalization, it would be interesting to see how/why they determined that he needed to be raided. Was he in fact selling? Did someone who knew he had the plants turn him in? Or was it due to excessive electric usage reported by the utility company for his hydroponics grow? Thermal scan of his house from the air?

From the OP

The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement.

 

[Belthos]

While neither advocating for or against marijuana legalization, it would be interesting to see how/why they determined that he needed to be raided. Was he in fact selling? Did someone who knew he had the plants turn him in? Or was it due to excessive electric usage reported by the utility company for his hydroponics grow? Thermal scan of his house from the air?

The excessive electricity thing bothers me, many years ago my parents electric meter went wonky. Their electric bill shot up to something like $1800 a month but the electric company didn't read the meter every month so by the time they did their bill was for thousands of dollars compared to it's more normal hundred or so dollars. The electric company admitted they knew about it long before they billed them and refused to check the meter. After all of the electric company failures to address the problem I encouraged them to take it to the corporation commission who finally resolved it in their favor by reducing their 3 months of bills to the maximum they'd ever been charged before and that was good enough for my parents to accept.

Only after involving the corporation commission did the electric company send someone out to test and replace the meter because their test showed it was broken and this should have been addressed long ago.

The reason the electric company gave for not inspecting the meter was they assumed that the increased usage was drug related.

Because after all lots of veterans who are retired from federal employment and have no criminal record suddenly hook up dozens of microwave ovens and cook crack 24/7.........

I suppose their next step these days would be to call a drug task force and set up an invasion.

 

[ripnbst]

GTG, good virtual friend, I agree with you in most posts you make however I have to bring some discussion to a few points you've made here.

The VERY first concern when conducting a drug raid should be non-combatants in the line of fire. Yes, this raid was a fail on that point alone. No drug arrest is worth endangering the life of a child. It's irresponsible.

I agree with you here, however my comment I made earlier regarding many LEO now are those with military history I think is applicable. When going into a raid in A-Stan and other places in the world's sandbox is as much consideration given for non-combatants within a domicile? I agree that those involved in the planning of these raids need to pull their heads out of their ... and gather more intel but for those who are actually carrying out the raid I would think it is tough to let that training and experience go. Training constantly and much more frequently as a soldier than an officer I would think it hard to transition from one method of "raid" to the other when the differences between the two really are pretty subtle. Soldiers dont conduct raids in the WOT with the supposed soft touch that LEO do domestically I wouldn't guess. Soldiers aren't police, they are soldiers. Having kicked in many a door, in some cases an entire city block or more, it can be really tough to transition from that method of search and seizure to one in a more domestic setting.

Due to the WOT, there are a lot of 25 year old guys that have more door kicking and gunfight experience that the sum total of most PD's entire force. There are also a lot of those WOT fighters who have passed on into police work and brought those levels of experience with them. I'm not saying he does specifically, but it would be unwise to dismiss someone's level of experience due to their age posted on the internet.

I again agree with the broad stroke of your post that with the war there are many young people with an atypical level of experience for their age. That experience doesn't EXACTLY line up with LEO duty, less finesse required, see above. However the OP you are referencing is a corrections officer, per his public profile. For him to say he deals with "worse" bad guys and more of them than most LEO's is sort of a loaded statement. It would be expected as he's a correctional officer but the BG's are in the associated environment. These guys aren't out in the wild with access to the dangers he eludes to simply by making the statement he did with the omission these guys are already in prison when he has this contact with them.

I also concede that just because his profile states he is in his twenties, doesn't mean he is. He could have (gasp) lied. But everyone knows LEO don't lie


I think that this idea of "Retired soldiers would make great cops" is a reason we see an uptick recently in this type of raid and behavior in the LEO community. In the classroom it is preached and in training its one thing but the adrenaline of the real deal puts the men and women into a frame of mind nothing else can and the training takes over. That's the justification for all the training right? Having undergone more training more frequently as a soldier than an officer I can't help but wonder which training is actually in effect at times of high stress when the subtleties between the two are just that.

 

[Vamoose]

Pick the low hanging fruit, users, especially marijuana users. More arrests = more funding. It happens every day.

 

[Glocktogo]

From the OP

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I wonder how she feels having precipitated (not caused) this series of tragic events?

GTG, good virtual friend, I agree with you in most posts you make however I have to bring some discussion to a few points you've made here.

I agree with you here, however my comment I made earlier regarding many LEO now are those with military history I think is applicable. When going into a raid in A-Stan and other places in the world's sandbox is as much consideration given for non-combatants within a domicile? I agree that those involved in the planning of these raids need to pull their heads out of their ... and gather more intel but for those who are actually carrying out the raid I would think it is tough to let that training and experience go. Training constantly and much more frequently as a soldier than an officer I would think it hard to transition from one method of "raid" to the other when the differences between the two really are pretty subtle. Soldiers dont conduct raids in the WOT with the supposed soft touch that LEO do domestically I wouldn't guess. Soldiers aren't police, they are soldiers. Having kicked in many a door, in some cases an entire city block or more, it can be really tough to transition from that method of search and seizure to one in a more domestic setting.

I again agree with the broad stroke of your post that with the war there are many young people with an atypical level of experience for their age. That experience doesn't EXACTLY line up with LEO duty, less finesse required, see above. However the OP you are referencing is a corrections officer, per his public profile. For him to say he deals with "worse" bad guys and more of them than most LEO's is sort of a loaded statement. It would be expected as he's a correctional officer but the BG's are in the associated environment. These guys aren't out in the wild with access to the dangers he eludes to simply by making the statement he did with the omission these guys are already in prison when he has this contact with them.

I also concede that just because his profile states he is in his twenties, doesn't mean he is. He could have (gasp) lied. But everyone knows LEO don't lie

I think that this idea of "Retired soldiers would make great cops" is a reason we see an uptick recently in this type of raid and behavior in the LEO community. In the classroom it is preached and in training its one thing but the adrenaline of the real deal puts the men and women into a frame of mind nothing else can and the training takes over. That's the justification for all the training right? Having undergone more training more frequently as a soldier than an officer I can't help but wonder which training is actually in effect at times of high stress when the subtleties between the two are just that.

You do bring up some valid points. The current ROE for troops is pretty strict. It wasn't always so, but they have to walk a fine line when conducting what are essentially policing actions in a hostile environment. Imagine sending only white officers to police Watts.

Most of these troops are also getting training from LE trainers or training developed and handed down from LE trainers. Again, once the main ground war is over, we're leaving these kids in theater for years to manage the indigent populace. They have to avoid being too heavy handed, lesst they swell the ranks of the "insurgents" due to animosity.

I would hope that those troops transitioning into stateside LE can utilize that training to their (and the community's) benefit. The key to me is weeding out aggressive behavior and a sense of superiority over citizens in potential LE recruits. We also have to keep in mind that "officer friendly" is at significantly higher risk of felonious death than a more tactically aggressive officer. Going home instead of the morgue at the end of every shift is drilled into officers routinely.

As to the CO status of the poster in question, it really depends on the type of facility and what level he works in. My cousin spent 5 years working lockdown in a max security prison and was on their "SORT Team". They worked daily with the worst of the worst, who had all day to think of ways to hurt CO's. The frequently had to do cell entry and searches, particularly to look for weapons and contraband.

The burnout rate for that type of work is higher than LE and while some LEO's look down on CO work (and they've had plenty of bad apples make the profession look bad), almost no patrol officers would want to work jail or prison duty.

Just some extra food for thought.