WHY??? It's POINTLESS!!!
...okay, start here: https://www.okshooters.com/threads/...-funeral-prayers-for-london-attackers.244091/
WHY??? It's POINTLESS!!!
...okay, start here: https://www.okshooters.com/threads/...-funeral-prayers-for-london-attackers.244091/
Except it's not the vast majority that believes what you just regurgitated. Do some research. Look at opinion polls of Muslims around the world. It's truly not just a tiny fringe element of extremists. It's a large swath of Muslims.
How many of those polls were taken in countries where Muslims feel they have been invaded, bombed or persecuted by the west? We've thoroughly examined the "just war" clause of Islam in this very thread. Even then, these people that agree with fighting the west themselves aren't strapping on suicide vests, so how do you answer them? And if you GOT INVOLVED instead of perpetuating the myth that "they're ALL out to get us", maybe those polls would look a bit different. If there were children of Muslim immigrants that loved guns and chose to join this forum, after seeing some of the comments, would you think he'd be more or less likely to find rationale in supporting radicalization?
Wait, you tell me I'm wrong and that the Surah At-Tawbah doesn't tell believers to attack non-believers, I show you EXACTLY where it says it and now I'm the one selectively picking what supports my world view? Hilarious! As for the bolded part, it's like you've been under a rock since 9/11. What exactly do you think all this bloodshed and violence is about?
You're exactly right, so long as you conveniently dismiss all the MANY practitioners of said faith which say "yes, that's exactly right!".
Your circular logic has developed a bit of an imbalance. The Surah At-Tawbah IS one of the traditional teachings of the Koran. A vast majority of Muslims worldwide DO feel persecuted. Extremists are using that sense of persecution to act on the actual verses in the Koran. An OVERWHELMING majority of Muslims worldwide will not condemn the extremists as Apostates because of what the Koran says. It says it and they believe it. Don't believe me, go ask them! Go to the Islamic Society of Greater Oklahoma City and ask the religious questions! Ask them why they don't condemn ISIS as Apostasy?
The only sample that really means anything at all, are the number of adherents who continue to wage jihad. Not enough of the "vast majority" condemn them in the manner necessary to stop the epidemic of violence. I fully support and appreciate those who go the distance and not only condemn radicals publicly, but also in the mosques and on the battlefields. They aren't alone and we support them. It's all the ones who don't do enough that we're talking about, and they are legion.
You're finally starting to get it. Most of those polls were taken in countries that have never been invaded or bombed by the West, at least not in their lifetimes. Their feelings simply do not justify violence in any form, anywhere in a modern, civilized society.
As for the last part, if they were actually paying attention and not just falling prey to aggrieved SJW nonsense, none of them would support radicalization.
Wait, you tell me I'm wrong and that the Surah At-Tawbah doesn't tell believers to attack non-believers, I show you EXACTLY where it says it and now I'm the one selectively picking what supports my world view? Hilarious! As for the bolded part, it's like you've been under a rock since 9/11. What exactly do you think all this bloodshed and violence is about?
Dude, how many times do I have to show you THE ENTIRE PASSAGE AND EXPLAIN THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT IN WHICH IT WAS WRITTEN? My 4 yr old great niece knows that if you ONLY post 9:5 without posting the first few verses or 9:6, then YES, IT'S OUT OF CONTEXT. And by the way, I'm still waiting for you to define those "slim circumstances none of us would meet" for them to show us mercy in 9:6.
You're exactly right also, so long as you conveniently dismiss all the MANY MORE practitioners of said faith that say, "NO, that's wrong!"You're exactly right, so long as you conveniently dismiss all the MANY practitioners of said faith which say "yes, that's exactly right!".
My "circular logic" understands that some scholars interpret the Koran differently than others and the vast majority of Muslims I've EVER met follow the whole passage taken in context that I've laid out several times and that's what I'm basing my interpretation on because that's the one I was taught. I see no way in there that you can read that whole passage and think it's okay to kill unbelievers willy-nilly as you suggest. My "circle-jerk logic" also comprehends that as a WESTERNER, I can't just open up somebody's centuries old holy book, read a few lines and get the gist of what BIIIILLLLYUNS of people believe as you seem to have done. Maybe my "circumcised logic" keeps me from being as quick on the uptake as you are when it comes to other people's religion. I actually have to slum around with the poor mis-guided fools who practice it and ask THEM what THEY think. So shame on me.
Yes, millions of Muslims feel persecuted. ISIS uses it as an excuse to wage jihad, others are legitimate. You're intelligent enough to see which is which.
An apostate is somebody who renounces Islam or says Mohammed's not a prophet or does the rites for another religion. The Koran even defines it as that in 3:90, 9:66 and 16:106. ISIS are not apostates.
The only sample that really means anything at all, are the number of adherents who continue to wage jihad. Not enough of the "vast majority" condemn them in the manner necessary to stop the epidemic of violence. I fully support and appreciate those who go the distance and not only condemn radicals publicly, but also in the mosques and on the battlefields. They aren't alone and we support them. It's all the ones who don't do enough that we're talking about, and they are legion.
You're finally starting to get it. Most of those polls were taken in countries that have never been invaded or bombed by the West, at least not in their lifetimes. Their feelings simply do not justify violence in any form, anywhere in a modern, civilized society.
As for the last part, if they were actually paying attention and not just falling prey to aggrieved SJW nonsense, none of them would support radicalization.
You obviously DON'T get it cuz WE'VE HAD A PRESENCE ON ALMOST EVERY MUSLIM COUNTRY THERE IS! "Not in their lifetimes?" Egyptian kids now get to grow up and hear stories about how we jacked with their elections, Iranian kids grow up hearing about how we backed the Shah, you want me to go down the list? Somalia, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Iraq, Saudi, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan ALL have been bombed or have U.S. troop presence in THEIR lifetimes and we were in several of these places for DECADES before 9/11 so I call high bullshat on that.
As I've said before, maybe if enough of us quit talking **** about them on the internet and MORE THAN JUST ME go talk to the Greater Islamic Society of Oklahoma and ask those religious questions and show the support you claim they have, eventually those poll numbers would change. It's not going to happen any time soon, that's for sure. They're flat not going to change when people are all over the internet screaming about how we should lock them the hell up, wipe them the hell out, cussing at them in the supermarket for wearing a friggin headwrap, "that the majority support extremism", or it's their FAITH that's the problem.
right on
It's right there in the text and you're just being obtuse and unwilling to concede that it's there.
1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger () to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.
2. So travel freely (O Mushrikun - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).
5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
6. And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.
So right the frick there in the text, it says you must go to them and seek their protection, listen to the Word of Allah (read the Koran) and then you will be escorted to where you can be secure. Your life depends on going to them and asking for mercy if they are attacking you because they feel persecuted. That is what the radicals believe and you don't get to say "No, it's not because the Koran doesn't say that!".
Further, our mere presence in their lands DOES NOT give them the right to come to our lands and slaughter us. I'm sick and tired of hearing apologists like you say "IT'S OUT OF CONTEXT" when very obviously it is being interpreted EXACTLY that way by radical Imams and radical jihadists, WHO ARE MUSLIM! You even admit finally that they're Muslim and can't be denounced as Apostates, which is the only legitimate way to kill them outright from within Islam.
Islam as written in the Koran is a highly judgmental religion who place non-believers beneath believers. It has been written poorly I'll admit, but that has led to millennia of strife and war with those who believe different from them. It is at the very core of why the western world is in perpetual conflict with Islam and it cannot be denied just because you have a myopic view of it as a peaceful religion. A religion as old as Islam cannot be peaceful if so many of it's practitioners routinely kill each other and a great many other peoples at such an alarming rate while shouting "Allah ackbar!".
I've given you multiple statements that reinforce my belief that there ARE Muslims who are peaceful, who denounce radicalism and who actually fight against it physically and verbally. I've demonstrated that I am aware of a peaceful Caliphate (which is a minority in Islam). So I agree with your opinion of that, just not the scope of your opinion.
Unfortunately, we have thousands of examples of Islamic extremist violence across the globe, both against opposing sects and infidels. Yet you still cling bitterly to this fantasy that Islam isn't the issue and none of us are smart enough or thoughtful enough to understand. I get it, you think we're all brown people Muslim haters who want to enslave them or kill them and you're the only enlightened one on the topic. I get that you think we can't read or understand a document as lofty as the Koran. Apparently you travel in elite Islamic circles and anyone Muslim or not who disagrees with your interpretation of the religion are wrong.
You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own set of facts. Facts and a significant number of people worldwide disagree with your opinions. Yet you obviously aren't going to change your opinions because you don't value the opinions of those who disagree with you. So I'm done debating it with you. It doesn't really matter anyway, because entrenched decision makers on both sides of the conflict will ensure we have many more decades of bloodshed and violence. Isn't that just frigging great?
It's right there in the text and you're just being obtuse and unwilling to concede that it's there.
So right the frick there in the text, it says you must go to them and seek their protection, listen to the Word of Allah (read the Koran) and then you will be escorted to where you can be secure. Your life depends on going to them and asking for mercy if they are attacking you because they feel persecuted. That is what the radicals believe and you don't get to say "No, it's not because the Koran doesn't say that!".
Further, our mere presence in their lands DOES NOT give them the right to come to our lands and slaughter us. I'm sick and tired of hearing apologists like you say "IT'S OUT OF CONTEXT" when very obviously it is being interpreted EXACTLY that way by radical Imams and radical jihadists, WHO ARE MUSLIM! You even admit finally that they're Muslim and can't be denounced as Apostates, which is the only legitimate way to kill them outright from within Islam.
Islam as written in the Koran is a highly judgmental religion who place non-believers beneath believers. It has been written poorly I'll admit, but that has led to millennia of strife and war with those who believe different from them. It is at the very core of why the western world is in perpetual conflict with Islam and it cannot be denied just because you have a myopic view of it as a peaceful religion. A religion as old as Islam cannot be peaceful if so many of it's practitioners routinely kill each other and a great many other peoples at such an alarming rate while shouting "Allah ackbar!".
I've given you multiple statements that reinforce my belief that there ARE Muslims who are peaceful, who denounce radicalism and who actually fight against it physically and verbally. I've demonstrated that I am aware of a peaceful Caliphate (which is a minority in Islam). So I agree with your opinion of that, just not the scope of your opinion.
Unfortunately, we have thousands of examples of Islamic extremist violence across the globe, both against opposing sects and infidels. Yet you still cling bitterly to this fantasy that Islam isn't the issue and none of us are smart enough or thoughtful enough to understand. I get it, you think we're all brown people Muslim haters who want to enslave them or kill them and you're the only enlightened one on the topic. I get that you think we can't read or understand a document as lofty as the Koran. Apparently you travel in elite Islamic circles and anyone Muslim or not who disagrees with your interpretation of the religion are wrong.
You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own set of facts. Facts and a significant number of people worldwide disagree with your opinions. Yet you obviously aren't going to change your opinions because you don't value the opinions of those who disagree with you. So I'm done debating it with you. It doesn't really matter anyway, because entrenched decision makers on both sides of the conflict will ensure we have many more decades of bloodshed and violence. Isn't that just frigging great?
Okay, you don't want to debate any more on the subject, fine. No hard feelings, but don't go there with that crap, GTG. I never accused you of ANY of that, I think you're one of the more intelligent and thoughtful people still left on this forum. I DO value your opinion, we disagree on a text that was written centuries ago that people have argued about and fought wars over since its inception. We're no different. I've flat said several times that I'm not the expert, it's just what I was taught when I studied it and I've never spoken to any Muslim who supported extremism, much less practiced it. I don't think I'm the "enlightened" one on this subject and I certainly don't think you want to do any of the things you described. Cool?
How many polls have you actually researched? None.
The polls in the U.K. and US still show significant portions of Muslims support terrorism and violence to support Islam.
Almost 25% supported the 7/7 bombings
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/
Large numbers support Hamas and Hezbollah and even al Queda
Have we been mean to Jordan, Turkey, Indonesia or Nigeria?
http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Over 20% of young American Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified.
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Those aren't tiny numbers of fringe elements.
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