This could get interesting.

[WFT]

yet in your quotes, he does not recommend that the church control the US government.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."--- Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."--- Benjamin Franklin

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

You miss the point my friend. I said nothing about the church controlling the government. We are talking about "God controlling the government"! Not people. But then it would take some spiritual insight for you to understand this concept.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

 

[LightningCrash]

You miss the point my friend. I said nothing about the church controlling the government. We are talking about "God controlling the government"! Not people. But then it would take some spiritual insight for you to understand this concept.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

You miss the point. Just who is going to implement your vision of God's will in the government?
Therein lies the issue.

God doesn't walk into DC every morning, flip the "Closed" sign to "Open" and open the Government for business with the public. At some point, someone's going to be carrying a gun and enforcing 9mm worth someone's view of God's will for America. Historically speaking, that person's view always sucks.

When I expressed my gratitude that our founding fathers were smart enough to keep the Church from running our government, you expressed a deep, fundamental disagreement with my beliefs. Now you claim you've not advocated for the Church running the government. As apparently you are misunderstood, you can take this opportunity to enumerate what you advocate.

 

[LightningCrash]

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of this country... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years."

 

[WFT]

You miss the point. Just who is going to implement your vision of God's will in the government?
Therein lies the issue.

God doesn't walk into DC every morning, flip the "Closed" sign to "Open" and open the Government for business with the public. At some point, someone's going to be carrying a gun and enforcing 9mm worth someone's view of God's will for America. Historically speaking, that person's view always sucks.

When I expressed my gratitude that our founding fathers were smart enough to keep the Church from running our government, you expressed a deep, fundamental disagreement with my beliefs. Now you claim you've not advocated for the Church running the government. As apparently you are misunderstood, you can take this opportunity to enumerate what you advocate.

Mr Henry can say it far better than I can.

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."

 

[WFT]

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of this country... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years."

Sounds like your afraid of something?
Yes true Christianity has been perverted, and I'm sure it is quite easy to find quotes such as these to try and prove your point. True religion is to "Love your neighbor as yourself, to help others in need and not to condemn anyone for their beliefs. God will be the judge, and of that you can be certain.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

 

[RidgeHunter]

Is this the thread where we misconstrue quotes from historical figures?

 

[WFT]

Is this the thread where we misconstrue quotes from historical figures?

Wow, hard to misconstrue that quote!! But I guess you have.

 

[RidgeHunter]

It's a bad habit of mine.

 

[MLR]

The words "separation of church and state" was intended to keep the government out of religion, not religion out of government. That is a modern Liberal idea.

Haven't many of these religious based hospitals invited the Government in by accepting tax money from them? If they accept government money shouldn't the government be able to set rules for its use?

Michael

 

[kd5rjz]

Is this the thread where we misconstrue quotes from historical figures?

I'm just surprised no one's made any "priest vs little boy" jokes yet.