Trump Rescinds Ban on Transfer of Some Military Equipment to Local Police

[Glocktogo]

Again with your lawyer game, the only part that matters is there is a situation where military equipment could be used. Your own words disprove your entire liberal argument.

If there's a situation where miltary equipment "could be used", then it's a situation where military equipment shouldn't be used. If there's a situation where military equipment should be used, then the military should be the ones using it. Dave's argument isn't liberal at all. It's positively libertarian and pragmatic to boot.

MRAPS I have issues with, I am glad the on in Lawton just sets in the sheriff's yards.

That's a big problem with the program. The equipment is too expensive to maintain without a budget like the DoD has.

Have we forgotten Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elan Gonzales? Granted, those were Federal LEOs using military tactics and weapons against citizens but exactly the same thing can happen with local law enforcement if they have the equipment.

I remember support for the assault weapons ban by some law enforcement, I don't want those people to be any more militarized than they already are, do you?? How about law enforcement confiscating guns in New Orleans after Katrina.....do you really want those kinds of LEOs to be more militarized??

I'm with Dave on this one......

Agreed.

 

[emapples]

I say no to MRAPS, the Diesel Brothers absolutely need those axles !!

 

[Pokinfun]

If there's a situation where miltary equipment "could be used", then it's a situation where military equipment shouldn't be used. If there's a situation where military equipment should be used, then the military should be the ones using it. Dave's argument isn't liberal at all. It's positively libertarian and pragmatic to boot.



That's a big problem with the program. The equipment is too expensive to maintain without a budget like the DoD has.



Agreed.

I said I don't care for the idea of militarizing the police at all, I stated that in my first post. After reading enough of Dave's arguments, it was liberal, but it is not worth debating.

 

[dennishoddy]

For those calling that the NG be brought in, are you sure about that? We do have NG units that have served in battle zones that are well trained, other units are administrative or training units that have no business in crowd control or riot conditions. They are not the final answer.
Trained LEO have much more experience than most NG outfits in domestic issues.
Some of the "military" supplies fall far from the militarization of police. Office supplies, maintenance equipment, etc are in the mix of supplies the feds are offering.

 

[Glocktogo]

For those calling that the NG be brought in, are you sure about that? We do have NG units that have served in battle zones that are well trained, other units are administrative or training units that have no business in crowd control or riot conditions. They are not the final answer.
Trained LEO have much more experience than most NG outfits in domestic issues.
Some of the "military" supplies fall far from the militarization of police. Office supplies, maintenance equipment, etc are in the mix of supplies the feds are offering.

I'm OK with administrative supplies, just not the stuff to be used on the street against citizens. Having the governor authorize the use of NG brings with it significant responsibilities, public scrutiny and effective controls well beyond police ROE. It also puts the pubic on notice that the rules have changed, so act accordingly. Since Kent State almost 50 years ago, the use of NG has been effective and far less violent than routine police actions in mob situations. When NOLA PD started confiscating arms aftrer Katrina, several NG units refused to participate. I worked with a Captain in the OK Guard who did exactly that.

The police need to stay in their traditional roles and while civilian AR's and effective armor are certainly acceptable, MG's and military uniforms and vehicles aren't. JMO, YMMV

 

[dennishoddy]

I don't disagree with most of what you said. Rolling up in tanks and Grenade Launchers(used for tear gas) is beyond the scope of a police action on domestic soil.
A point was brought out earlier about the cops being outgunned in California and since that incident, haven't most PD's elevated their weaponry to match what may be brought against them? Even the town of Lamont Ok, pop 600 has a cop with an AR in the front of his car. I walked past it yesterday noting it while he was doing some community policing in the convenience store over lunch.
Not personally for machine guns nor military uniforms.
Bullet proof vehicles, I'm all in favor of to get the wounded out, or to obtain a tactical advantage.

 

[okie362]

In my opinion, the militarization of the police has less to do with equipment and more to do with mentality, attitude and behavior. With the state of affairs in today's society I'm for providing the LEO community with whatever it takes for them to be successful in dealing with the "element of society" they confront on a more and more frequent basis.

That being said, there must be oversight, checks and balances to ensure the proper behavior and attitude is applied in all encounters. I would like to (and once did) think our LEO community is above reproach. Unfortunately that is no longer the case as I now have the benefit of age and experience to draw upon. I now understand that people are people regardless of their clothes, skin color, nation of origin or a multitude of otherwise "defining" factors. Some are good, some are bad and someone has to determine which are which.

Welcome to the world. Reality sucks!

 

[TerryMiller]

Just as an afterthought on calling in the National Guard, that requires that the governor issue that directive. What if the governor hesitates too long and lives are already disrupted on both sides by injuries or deaths? As we can see with the directive that the Berkeley campus PD standing by and not engaging with Antifa that politics gets in the way of safety. I don't think I want to force our police to be in danger because the governor is hesitant to call in the Guard, and as another afterthought, how long would it take for the Guard to be activated and in place?

 

[Snake]

I'd love for somebody to give me an example of a legitimate police use for bayonets. @Annie? @tomthebaker? @MacFromOK?

Please give me an example where a cop bayoneted someone ?

 

[Chuckie]

I am generally against turning the police, at large, into paramilitary types. I tend to think that if you need that kind of force, which is certainly possible, activate the National Guard and/or State militia if the State has one. I am not against the police having the capability to overmatch the lone nut job or being able to roust violent protesters but I don't think HMMWVs and MRAPs are the best way to do that. Policing is generally best done with a human, local and sympathetic face - something like the traditional blue uniformed officer of memory. I accept that there is some subset of the force (at least of a large force) that probably needs SWAT training and equipment but that should really be a small proportion of the overall force.

Yes, I also remember a kinder and gentler form of community policing, but these days that form of operation is a sure ticket to injury, being that the criminal element has become so much more aggressive (as well as having much better weapons) than in the past.