Justice Dept. in "Panic Mode' according to Fox News

[okie_gunslinger]

the whole thing was a blantant false-flag, and they don't care:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/14/mexico.guns/index.html

Wow I knew that CNN and MSNBC were ignoring this whole ordeal, but to act like it's not even happening, and to not draw a connection is insane.


here is the PDF released by the house oversight committie detailing their findings.
http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/ATF_Report.pdf

 

[SMS]

Don't worry! We're from the gov'ment and we're here to help!

Gotta be someone else's fault. The government is incapable of wrongdoing.

What's your point?

Yes the ATF is responsible, but without cooperating dealers the sales would have been harder to complete. As a dealer if I felt something was wrong, wrong enough that it made me call the ATF, I wouldn't feel comfortable continuing the sales without at least something in writing.

That statement doesn't absolve ATF from any wrongdoing, it just illustrates the fact that ATF was only part of the problem.

 

[Hobbes]

Despite the obvious ATF responsibility here, wouldn't you think at some point the dealers would say "enough", and stop these supicious sales, or at least demand something in writing from the ATF?

You know, that's a really REALLY good question, and I don't think I have an answer.
I'm sure they thought they were indemnified by the audio recordings but still, if they were that suspicous they had to know that something was wrong.

Maybe they just didn't have a contingency plan because this was an unprecedented event and they were unprepared.

 

[okie_gunslinger]

What's your point?

Yes the ATF is responsible, but without cooperating dealers the sales would have been harder to complete. As a dealer if I felt something was wrong, wrong enough that it made me call the ATF, I wouldn't feel comfortable continuing the sales without at least something in writing.

That statement doesn't absolve ATF from any wrongdoing, it just illustrates the fact that ATF was only part of the problem.

The ATF indicated to the FFL holders that it was ok to sell to those individuals because they were aware of the sales and investigating the individuals. For all the FFL holders knew they were participating in an ATF investigation. At the time the guns were sold it was a well accepted notion that the ATF would follow and interdict the weapons before they caused trouble. Unbeknownst to the dealers the ATF was not following standard operating procedures, which usually required the speedy confiscation of the guns, but were instead allowing the weapons to merely walk away. The ATF as an authority figure in this situation set the bar for how this problem unfolded. Blaming the FFL holder for following their directions makes as much sense as blaming the manufacturer for producing the weapon in the first place. Remember the ATF new exactly what was happening to the guns once they left the store, the FFL holders didn't.

 

[SMS]

Blaming the FFL holder for following their directions makes as much sense as blaming the manufacturer for producing the weapon in the first place. Remember the ATF new exactly what was happening to the guns once they left the store, the FFL holders didn't.

For the third time, I'm not blaming the FFL holders exclusively. I've clearly stated that the ATF is at fault. I just think it's ironic that we are all quick to lay all of the blame and hate at the feet of the feds, but out of the same corner of our mouths say "It's ok, the ATF told them to do it" when it comes to the dealers making the questionable sales. Sales that the dealers themselves thought were questionable.

Our collective distrust of the ATF predates Project Gunrunner, so for a dealer to put their business and personal freedom at risk based on a telephone conversation seems a bit odd. At some point, individuals have some responsibility to do the right thing. Using the excuse of "the ATF said it was cool" might not keep you out of trouble and it doesn't mean you did the right thing, especially when you had a bad feeling about the sales.

 

[Werewolf]

For the third time, I'm not blaming the FFL holders exclusively. I've clearly stated that the ATF is at fault.

Put yourself in the FFL's place.

Your business, your livlihood even the continued well being of your family depend on your relationship with the ATF. Given their record vis a vis how they treat FFL's it only makes sense that an FFL holder cooperate and not pull the tiger's tail.

Randy Weaver tried that and look what it got him.

 

[been]

how did they get ATF? firearms isnt even related to the other two.

 

[okie_gunslinger]

how did they get ATF? firearms isnt even related to the other two.

Short answer to that is Taxes. Imagine if you will a militant wing of the IRS and you come up with the ATF. They manage the federal taxes placed on that stuff, Like the tax stamp on NFA Items. So the only realation between alcohol, tobacco, and firearms is that they are fun and taxed by the government.