Kafe Bona Robbery - What would you do?

[a.saliga]

The recent crime spree that's been happening in the most unexpected locations has me thinking about how I would react in that same situation. I think of the carjacking and murder spree that occurred at 21st and Yale, the Sports Clips shooting, and most recently, the Kafe Bona robbery. (If you're not familiar with these, I've posted links to news videos below.)

Take the Kafe Bona robbery for example. Two men with guns enter the coffee shop on a Sunday afternoon, have all customers get on the floor, and threaten to shoot anyone who causes trouble. Employees are pistol whipped and told empty the safe. In the end, no one was seriously injured. At what point do you make the decision to "neutralize the threat"? If a CCW holder had been present and engaged how would the scene have been different? Sure a firefight could have started, but I guess the bottom line is that you never know what someone is going to do.

I'd love to hear some opinions with this very real scenario so fresh in our minds.


http://www.news9.com/story/14757331/shooting-standoff-shuts-down-major-tulsa-intersection

http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/double-shooting-at-tulsa-hills-shopping-center


http://www.newson6.com/story/14941513/surveillance-video-released-in-tulsa-coffee-shop-robbery

 

[ProBusiness]

can't say unless i was there.

i was thinking it is important how you carry your gun. takes a little longer to get gun out of a pocket vs a holster on your side.

what if you initiated the shooting then a bad guy shot an innocent bystander? are u responsible for the bystander being shot to some degree???? could a defense attorney make this argument???

i do feel that there is a point of no return - that is, after a certain point it would be very hard to get to your gun, i.e. they have you lying on the floor, you are herded into a freezer, they say all hands in the air and you have to make a decision to go for your gun or put your hands in the air.

according to our concealed carry law, you can protect yourself, spouse, children, parents, employer, or employee (I think I have listed this correctly) so if you pull a gun to protect others - how will this play out. but if you pull your gun to protect yourself, then you are within the law. the latter could probably be argued in this situation.

 

[Twmaster]

Wouldn't shooting a BG who threatened you (and everyone else) be considered protecting one's self?

This is an interesting thing to ponder. I've read some folks who are of the opinion if you are not in danger and the BG is not shooting anybody else you should just stay quiet and be ready if you need -really- need to act.

Of course others will say the BG is well deserving of a quick death by (jacketed) lead poisoning.

As to the death of an innocent bystander... Dunno. Seems the law would put that on the BG.

This will be interesting to discuss.

 

[jarhead983]

I voted to neutralize the threat when guns were drawn. This is an over simplification. It depends on where I'm at vs the gunmen vs innocent bystanders. Once they started beating people, I don't know if I could have refrained myself. I would not have been herded into the bathroom as was reported. I will not be taken to an easier hiding place and placed on my knees. Luckily these people weren't shot after being taken to the bathroom, but I would not have taken that chance.

 

[zoomaster1]

I was told at my CCW class, as soon as eye contact is made, the BG knows your there. You are not protecting others, you are protecting your self. Don't know the lay-out of the place, but was told if you can hide before you are seen, just be a good witness. I agree that it would be very hard to do nothing if people were getting beat etc. Just proves you need to be prepared for anything, anytime! I chose the 2nd choice by the way.

 

[AKguy1985]

Well if somebody pulls a gun on me and wants to rob me then I feel that my life and safety are in grave danger, if that happens then they are going to get shot. Plain and simple

 

[cowboydoc]

can't say unless i was there.

This is my answer as well. It is a good question that you ask, but there are too many variables for it to be a simple multiple choice, pick this or that.

Of course the answer I want to give is I'd just shoot 'em dead and be done with it.

Just a few questions that would come into play in any situation:

Where am I positioned in relation to the bad guys?
Have they seen/focused on me?
Pointing a gun directly at me?
Do I have cover or concealment?
What am I carrying? (with multiple bad guys, there is a big difference between my 5 shot revolver and my 14 or 18 round semi-auto)
Where are my wife and/or kids? Are they close to me and could get hit if the BG returns fire?
What is behind the BG if I shoot and miss?
Who/what is between me and them?

Lots of others probably, but you get the point. I know that I would certainly feel more pressure to do something if customers are being herded to a secondary scene where some really bad things can happen. The employees are lucky to have gotten out with just being pistol-whipped.

 

[KOPBET]

You may possibly have to find out.

IIR, these perps are still at large.

 

[ripnbst]

Here is something to think about. With your typical dress, if you put your hands up, is your typically concealed weapon now showing? I know mine would be, I'm not into wearing shirts 2 sizes too big.

In the event they make make me "Stick em up" I am pretty much going to be flashing my firearm to anyone behind me. Luckily the way I carry wouldn't be visible from the front.

I chose #2 for a few reasons. Do nothing is out of the question. Drawing my gun when theirs is pointed at me means they are probably looking right at me, not exactly the best time to reach for your gun. Engage when shots are fired is too late.

 

[nofearfactor]

None of the above.

Ok, one answer I have is going to sound totally insane, is not realistic at all, just an idea that I havent ever heard before. But, if I had been in there alone without my wife or kids, whether I was armed or unarmed (which is extremely rare), I would wonder if I could have just got up and walked or ran right out the front door no matter if they were yelling at me or pointing a gun on me or even shooting at me on the way out. Stupid, yaa, probably. But Im not a cop ( my father and grandfather were cops and Marines). Im not trained in any sort of disarm techniques. I was never in the military in a warzone. I was a boxer but that doesnt really train you for much of anything outside of man to man self defense. Im just a regular dude who has a CC permit to protect myself and my family members when with me. Im not any where near trained to be the worlds security force. No one got shot that day thankfully and chances are they werent out to shoot anybody that day anyways or they would have. You can take a beating and live and take a bullet or two and live. I have had both happen to me.

My thinking and hope would be in creating a diversion for the others. That maybe they would be so freaked out by me heading outside that they would follow me outside where the threat would be off of the people in the cafe and the threat would then be on me outside. And hopefully someone would be calling 911 where I would probably only be in danger out there for the next 5-? minutes, depending on how long it took the police to get there.

Im not crazy or have a death wish. I just have pondered what to do in many scenarios, and a scenario similar to this a million times many years ago when in school and working the graveyard shift in a convenience store in Oakland,Ca. It was a scary time of night to be working in that kind of place and in that city too. I never got robbed, but, I figured if someone did come in and try to rob me I would just tell em to take whatever the hell they wanted and I would try and run out either of the two doors we had as fast as I could with the hope that their aim sucked and they only hit me in the shoulder or back of the arm if they shot at me while I was running out. I would not have ever just let them herd me into a freezer or back room only to shoot me in the head, I would have done whatever I had to do to protect myself.

In this cafe situation I would be trying to get to my gun as soon as I got outside in case they did follow me out, and if they didnt follow me out then Im outside and armed and trying to figure out how to help those people inside. But it just seems to me that if you are inside and armed and you pull your gun out, dont you think they would be looking for that? And then there would be a shootout with bullets flying all over the place and then everyone inside that cafe has a chance of getting hurt by you trying to be a cowboy? I dont need that kind of liability on me, or go to jail protecting other people.

Honestly, I dont really know what the hell I would have done, but I do know for 100% sure that they wouldnt have herded me anywhere just to shoot me in the head. I would be thinking of something to do to save myself and I suppose the other people too. Maybe I could do what Jules did in Pulp Fiction and wait til they came for my wallet then I pull my gun on them, but in my mind, shite like that is what would have gotten everybody in trouble. The old dude that was the hero at that Homeland that was getting robbed out in south Tulsa years ago that time as far Im concerned just got lucky and things worked out where he had a chance to be a hero. I have no delusions of ever being a hero any where for anything.