Question with long explanation

[zeronight6r6]

I’ve considered for some time now whether to purchase or build my first AR. With all of the rhetoric happening about bans, new legislation, buy backs, etc… I thought I better go for it before something changes and I’m no longer able to, so I built my first “budget” AR. My thought was that building it would give me a better understanding of how an AR works but I also didn’t have a lot of money to go out and buy a Daniel Defense or some other high end AR. So I started piecing it together, buying a piece here and there. All together I have around $450 in it.

I’ve never been one to think I needed an AR, so I’ve tried to look at this as an investment. I told myself “if nothing else I can sell it and get my money back and if something crazy does happen (like new regulations) maybe I could make a little money on it in the future”. Problem is I absolutely loved building it and now want to build more!

So today I stopped by one of my local gun shops just to look around and get some ideas and there was a gentleman in there just finishing up at the counter. I really don’t pay a lot of attention to him as I’m looking around. The gentleman leaves after a few minutes and after he leaves the owner says “I’m glad that’s over” then looks at me and says “that was the ATF and he had been here for the last 2 days going over our paperwork”. After some further discussion I ask a couple of questions about AR parts for a new build, he answers my questions and follows it up with “you know, I just happened to ask the ATF guy about AR builds because I had heard that if you build 2 or more you are now considered a manufacturer”. He says the ATF guy replies back that that is incorrect, individuals can build as many as they want but if he or someone else from the ATF come to cross reference those serial numbers with their list, that individual had better have all of them in his or her possession.

Has anyone else heard this before or have any experience with this? I was considering doing another build and giving it to my dad as a gift but now I’m wondering if that’s a good idea and if I’ll be stuck with my first build for the rest of my life.


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[tRidiot]

... After some further discussion I ask a couple of questions about AR parts for a new build, he answers my questions and follows it up with “you know, I just happened to ask the ATF guy about AR builds because I had heard that if you build 2 or more you are now considered a manufacturer”. He says the ATF guy replies back that that is incorrect, individuals can build as many as they want but if he or someone else from the ATF come to cross reference those serial numbers with their list, that individual had better have all of them in his or her possession.

Has anyone else heard this before or have any experience with this? I was considering doing another build and giving it to my dad as a gift but now I’m wondering if that’s a good idea and if I’ll be stuck with my first build for the rest of my life.

Nope, ********. I've built many, have traded some, haven't sold ANY. Traded this lower for that lower, etc. I do still have most of the ones I've bought, but making swaps with my own private property isn't illegal, so eff 'em.

Good luck with trying to paint me as a 'dealer' considering you won't find a single person I've ever taken a dollar from when building their gun or swapping them for parts or other stuff I wanted.

 

[Aries]

I think there must be some misunderstanding. My first question would be what "list"? The only reason the ATF would have to know that you bought a lower receiver would be if they traced it from the manufacturer/distributor/dealer to you because it was used in a crime. In which case you had probably better NOT have it in your possession!

I suppose you could be charged with manufacturing if you bought a receiver and sold it as a completed rifle, but I've never heard of that. As far as I know it's not illegal to buy a receiver than resell it (assuming you didn't buy it for the purpose of reselling), same as purchasing and later selling any other firearm. How would the ATF know that you sold a completed rifle though? Your story could be that you decided not to build and sold the stripped lower at a gun show.

My understanding is that you can't sell an 80% lower, but then they are not serial numbered so how would the ATF know you ever bought it OR sold it? Obviously, if you are buying lower receivers and building rifles for the PURPOSE of selling them, you are a manufacturer/dealer, which is a problem...

All this is just off the top of my head, but as far as I know there is nothing illegal about building an AR from a legally acquired serial numbered stripped lower, then deciding later to sell it. Technically, I think it's just a firearm with a bunch of accessories added to it.

But I'll be interested in reading everyone else's responses, there's a TON of stuff I don't know about! LOL!

 

[Fyrtwuck]

Sounds to me like he was trying to instill a little fear into the dealer with a BS story and succeeded.

 

[mr ed]

They will mostly go after the people who have bought dozens and no longer have them.
Heard of "tax evasion"?
A receiver is a part and not a complete firearm.
Once completed and sold, federal excise tax under the Pittman-Robertson act is due.
Not on the price you sold it for, but a retail value determined by the Gov't.

 

[mr ed]

I think there must be some misunderstanding. My first question would be what "list"? The only reason the ATF would have to know that you bought a lower receiver would be if they traced it from the manufacturer/distributor/dealer to you because it was used in a crime. In which case you had probably better NOT have it in your possession!

I suppose you could be charged with manufacturing if you bought a receiver and sold it as a completed rifle, but I've never heard of that. As far as I know it's not illegal to buy a receiver than resell it (assuming you didn't buy it for the purpose of reselling), same as purchasing and later selling any other firearm. How would the ATF know that you sold a completed rifle though? Your story could be that you decided not to build and sold the stripped lower at a gun show.

My understanding is that you can't sell an 80% lower, but then they are not serial numbered so how would the ATF know you ever bought it OR sold it? Obviously, if you are buying lower receivers and building rifles for the PURPOSE of selling them, you are a manufacturer/dealer, which is a problem...

All this is just off the top of my head, but as far as I know there is nothing illegal about building an AR from a legally acquired serial numbered stripped lower, then deciding later to sell it. Technically, I think it's just a firearm with a bunch of accessories added to it.

But I'll be interested in reading everyone else's responses, there's a TON of stuff I don't know about! LOL!

Mostly this happens to people who buy quantities of receivers, assemble them, them sell them at gunshows, flea markets etc.
Like the guy said they had been there 2 days. What they were looking for was names they have on a list. High volume gun purchasers.
I have a friend they nailed like that. buying 20-30 guns a month then setting up at shows. Nailed him for dealing without a license.

You are on lists you would not believe. Order anything anywhere and your on a list. Not just guns but anything.
Kind of like when you google something and your computer loads up with ads for the same type item.
BIG BROTHER IS EVERYWHERE , ALWAYS WATCHING.

 

[Glock 40]

Sounds like you need to find a new place to buy lowers. Also first thing you do after purchasing a gun is purchase a boat.

 

[Cowcatcher]

Read my lips.........BOATING ACCIDENT!

 

[Glock 40]

ATF shows up at house.
You - Sorry sir lost my guns in a boating accident.
ATF - You don't have a boat.
You - I know sir I lost it in a boating accident.

 

[EKing]

The lower receiver of an AR15 is the legal firearm, with or without the barrel, stock and everything else that makes it useful as a firearm.
The confusion over whether you are stuck with a firearm once you build it only applies to 80% builds, and even then that's not really true. If you build one from an 80% kit and then want to sell it, there is a legal way once you serialize it, and stamp it with some other required markings (and some paperwork).
Selling guns from your personal collection is legal. Buying multiple guns for the purpose of making a profit is a business and without an FFL, will eventually earn you a visit from a friendly guy with a badge.
If the ATF has your name on a list, you have already been in violation of the law, probably multiple times.