Taurus 709

[ez bake]

No, sir, they do not, I don't believe - not like the Glock, if that is what you're calling a 'European grip'. Which one(s)? Are you talking current production, or old stuff that is no longer made (for good reason).

If you get into measurements, the M&P, XD, CZ75, BHP, and the vast majority of the others are far, FAR closer to 1911 than they are to glock - we can get out the protractors if you like! THAT's 'WTF', since you asked!

Taurus and Walther (both of which you named) both make guns with European grips - as does Sig, Steyr, HK, FN, S&W, Ruger, etc... I'd wager that the M&P is in-between (as are several others that aren't quite as drastic as the Glock).

Aside from actual 1911s, the majority of handguns made have a slightly more swept grip than the 1911 does.

Colt has a much worse price-point than Taurus as far as what you get for what you pay (keep in mind that Colt has had a crap-ton of recalls in recent times).

Taurus doesn't have a better fit/finish than any of the other guns listed in this thread (save the Hi-Point). They do a good job for the most part, but miss a lot of little things.

Lets not forget reliability (in my opinion, of of the major reasons to own a handgun). Glock gives you much higher reliability than Taurus for not a lot of extra money.

With Taurus the general logic goes: the good ones are loved by their owners and will usually give you little if any problems. The bad ones suck badly and you'll never get them to work right - but its a crap-shoot on several of their more problematic models.

I owned a 24-7 and loved it. Never had a problem with more than a few hundred rounds through it, but the fact is, they're not proven in the world of hard-usage guns like Glocks and several others are - there's a reason for that.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Taurus and Walther (both of which you named) both make guns with European grips - as does Sig, Steyr, HK, FN, S&W, Ruger, etc... I'd wager that the M&P is in-between (as are several others that aren't quite as drastic as the Glock).

It may be 'in between', but as I said above (with emphasis):

If you get into measurements, the M&P, XD, CZ75, BHP, and the vast majority of the others are far, FAR closer to 1911 than they are to glock

Plus the ones you mention: Sig, Steyr, HK, FN, S&W, Ruger; ditto, all of them.

Are you disputing that specific statement? I think that you are, but want to be sure what you're saying. I believe that you are placing a specific definition on your phrase "european grip", where none exists. That is a nebulous or ill-defined phrase. What specific grip angle, or range of angles, between 0 and 45 degrees, does that phrase reflect, in your definition of the phrase?

Please set aside the phrase "euro grip", which is meaningless to me. What is not meaningless are the actual ergos of the gun, which are dependent solely upon math/ geometry in the design, not phrases - again:

If you get into measurements, the M&P, XD, CZ75, BHP, and the vast majority of the others are far, FAR closer to 1911 than they are to glock.

This is a true statement, no? Protractor time, I guess! Gimme a couple days to design a repeatable & valid algorithm to measure these bad boys as they actually sit in people's hands - should be an interesting experiment, and hey - I just may prove myself wrong - I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong.

 

[ez bake]

I never said the BHP or the XD had European grips.

I'm not going to argue with you over a phrase used widely in the gun world.

You're the one who said the Glock's grip-angle was so wrong - I'm just stating that its the same grip-angle used by many other handgun manufacturers.

The M&P and just a few others might be "in-between", but the vast majority are pretty far swept like the Glock's. Besides, you're splitting hairs now - if the 1911's angle is what you prefer, then all of the above guns I've mentioned don't meet that.

I'll bow out of this thread since the OP didn't intend to hear why Glocks suck - I was just pointing out that none of your reasons were valid.

 

[bettingpython]

....
With Taurus the general logic goes: the good ones are loved by their owners and will usually give you little if any problems. The bad ones suck badly and you'll never get them to work right - but its a crap-shoot on several of their more problematic models.

LOL yep so many people have bashed their 1911 other than the quickly wearing blue finish love my pt1911... of course mileage varies.

I owned a 24-7 and loved it. Never had a problem with more than a few hundred rounds through it, but the fact is, they're not proven in the world of hard-usage guns like Glocks and several others are - there's a reason for that.

Well I was trying really hard to durability test my Taurus pt1911 but even with realoding .45acp is an expensive habit to feed vs. 9mm.

I have 5K through mine, it beat a a guide rod apart, but even with 3 inches of rod sticking out the front the spring still remained captured and cycled.

 

[ez bake]

LOL yep so many people have bashed their 1911 other than the quickly wearing blue finish love my pt1911... of course mileage varies.



Well I was trying really hard to durability test my Taurus pt1911 but even with realoding .45acp is an expensive habit to feed vs. 9mm.

I have 5K through mine, it beat a a guide rod apart, but even with 3 inches of rod sticking out the front the spring still remained captured and cycled.

That's pretty cool man - I've heard good and bad about Taurus' 1911s but like I said, the good is all good, the bad is all bad.

I'd buy a 24-7 again for sure - I've heard almost no bad about them.

 

[bettingpython]

Oh and Dr. THW you might want to throw the Kahr P9 series in your linup of smart carry options.

Of all the ones you have listed though I would love to get my mitts on a rorbaugh

 

[tm8634]

Well, actually, if you look closely, it looks nothing like a Glock,

your right one says brazil on the side and the other says austria...

 

[huskres]

Well, actually, if you look closely, it looks nothing like a Glock, IMO. Much sleeker, better looking, and many differences.

I think the jury is still out on performance/longevity.

If the Boberg doesn't come out soon, then I'm gonna do a hardcore compare & contrast of the KT PF9, Rohrbaugh R9, Taurus 709, Walther PPS, and Microtech Archangel. I want a light slim little dude for SmartCarry - an upgrade from a .380. Leaning towards the Walther at this point.

They're not even in the same category of pistol really - one is a fatty fat fat double stack that you cannot comfortably smartcarry, pocket carry, or IWB - the other one is.

I'd pick pretty much any gun over a glock (except Hi-point, etc.) - BTDT; had many and they suck nards compared to today's offerings. In the 90s, they were a decently innovative pistol for the price. Now, they're just about the worst price-to-performance/innovation/features/fit & finish ratio you can find out there. Unless a serious injury left your wrist cocked in a permanently downward fashion, which would be compensated by the freakish upward grip angle they put into their pistols for some reason.

Where are you getting the Microtech? Are they out yet?