Thoughts on big name manufacturers vs lesser known names?

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ez bake

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A bit off topic, but not really.
Most high end manufacturers practice a process called 6th Sigma.
What this means if I remember correctly is that they will strive for no more than one in a million defects. So with that said even with one of the best quality products out there you can still get a dud. The other side of that coin is the ones who have lower standards. But once again every once in a while you'll get a dandy. As a example I had a Llama 1911. Factory stocked it would out shoot and out perform any other 1911 I owned.

I appreciate the fact that these companies are striving for excellence, but to me regulation is what's killing the quality in firearms today - many firearms manufacturers (or other manufacturers) are becoming ISO or Sigma certified and then calling it "good enough" as if that's a replacement for paying more for qualified employees, tighter tolerances, etc...

As with any gun - the major difference in what you want vs. what you have to pay is what do you intend to do with this firearm? If its a toy, then get something cheap, break it out at the range or to impress friends 3-4 times a year and sleep well at night because you did the right thing.

If its for self-defense then quality makes a difference. Here's the problem - higher quality stuff costs more to produce than crap. But if its more expensive, it doesn't necessarily mean that its high-quality.

If its super-cheap, you can bet your ass that its not high-quality though. It may be "good enough" for what you're doing, and no offense to anyone who has had a cheaper gun and reports that "I've had no issues with mine and I've had it for 5 years", but I rarely see examples of hundreds of sub $300 (new) guns making it to 1000rds without a failure.

I don't personally consider a gun "tested" until it reaches 500rds or so - many on here consider their pass/fail number to be much higher (like 1000-2000rds).

That's when a firearm has truly passed every test and proven itself - not the end of its life - you should expect (or demand) that many trouble-free rounds out of something that you're planning on using to defend your life. If your gun does that and it only cost $200 - then awesome. I would bet that not all guns out there of that exact same model do the same thing though - its damn near impossible to achieve that level of reliability and not be spending more than $200 per gun on manufacturing, qualified employees, QC, Engineering and Development, advertising, etc... I would say that quality is hit or miss in those guns.

Think about the Honda Accord (pre 99 and post 04) - not the most expensive car on the road, but it was a friggin tank. It lasted forever and had very few catastrophic issues (if taken care of properly). It cost more than the Taurus, but worked much better over time and had far fewer issues long-term (not knocking fords, I've owned several and still own an Explorer).

Look at the Accord from 99 through 04 with their horrendous 5-speed automatic transmission problems - that was unacceptable from a name like Honda (especially with the Accord), but it proves that every now and then even the known reliable makers of anything let budgetary concerns get the best of them and pump out some crap.

Information is your best weapon against owning crap. Not necessarily spending more money blindly - but don't expect to get something that hasn't been proven and have it work as well as proven quality stuff.
 

Old Fart

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EZB,

Wasn't defending any side of this discussion.
Just explaining a little of what goes on inside some of these factories.

For what it's worth my Llama is long gone.
Didn't ever really like it for anything but plinking, didn't trust it to function when I needed it.
Even though it always did.
I guess I was just waiting for the other shoes to drop.

As with anything though there's good and bad.
And as stated do you want to trust your life on something that is built to a lesser quality.

Edited to add *As a side note......some of the finest weapons out there are the least known.*
 

Glocktogo

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You guys tend to consider the quality of a gun by the amount of advertising dollars the company spends.

What makes you come to that assumption? How do you know what gun company advertising we believe? Personally, I don't read gun rags anymore because of the bias. I ignore any self-promotion and seller driven hype about a product. About the only thing I'll consider if I decide to buy a product sight unseen are non-biased end user reviews written by professionals in the field where the product is needed.

In over 20 years of gunsmithing I've seen the good, the bad and the crap.
Some of the companies you consider GOOD, have turned out an awful lot of crap!
S&W turned out a lot of bad guns from 1974-1980
Colt turned out a lot of bad 1980-84
Springfield Armory turned out some real junk 1982-1990
I can tell a lot of stories about SA
Like a national match M1 Garand complete w/fired target, but NO chamber!
I asked the Reese boys to explain how they shot that target. They couldn't!
Rugers- potluck usually you get good one but once in a while you get a real junker.
Price does not make one gun shoot better than another.
A Polytech M14 will out shoot a Springfield M1A anytime.
Polytech got a bad rep. because of an article in Gun Test Magazine
But the article was biased because Springfield had 7 full page ads in the mag
and Polytech had none.

Any company can turn out a turd, but a good company will have a lower per piece reject ratio than a company with poor standards. I will likely never own another Springfield simply because their QC is not up to my standards AND their CS is woefully inadequate. S&W however will continue to get my business because they turn out a much higher percentage of quality products and their CS is very good.

Quite frankly, I've never had a single manufacturing defect with any Glock product and I've probably shot a higher aggregate number of rounds through them than all the other manufacturers combined (Browning .22's excluded). We're talking well over 100K here. If I did have a problem, I most likely wouldn't even have to test their CS because they've been so generous in sharing their parts (which are very inexpensive) and expertise with the shooting communty.

You don't see that level of commitment to the end user in lesser companies for the most part.


Would I carry a cheapo? Hell yes! a couple of my favorite carry pieces are
a Iver Johnson Tp-22 loaded w/cci stingers and a $129 Pa63 in 9mm makarov
works first time every time.

I hope the Tp-22 is carried as a backup only. I'd never carry a .22 as a primary or backup (maybe a deep concealment 3rd gun). I've carried 2nd tier guns before such as Star and Taurus with no qualms. I still carry a Kel-Tec and most would consider them a 2nd tier gun.

I realize that many people can't afford an expensive gun, but even to them I'd never recommend a 3rd tier gun (Bryco, Jennings, Hi Point) when with just a little more effort on their part, they could at least affford a decent used 2nd tier gun.

If they don't have enough money to buy better than a 3rd tier gun, they most likely will not be able to afford enough ammo to test it's reliability to ensure good function. In that case, they're basing their defense on an untested, low quality product. In other words, they're counting on what may wind up being an overpriced talisman.

Comments in blue.
 

ez bake

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EZB,

Wasn't defending any side of this discussion.
Just explaining a little of what goes on inside some of these factories.

For what it's worth my Llama is long gone.
Didn't ever really like it for anything but plinking, didn't trust it to function when I needed it.
Even though it always did.
I guess I was just waiting for the other shoes to drop.

As with anything though there's good and bad.
And as stated do you want to trust your life on something that is built to a lesser quality.

Edited to add *As a side note......some of the finest weapons out there are the least known.*

I get what you're saying man (and I wasn't trying to argue - sorry if that's how it came across) - but as a part of a company that's ISO / Sigma certified I can tell you that corporations can screw stuff up - even if the rules/regs were designed to make things better.

I feel like that's a big reason that Remington and Springfield's QC is in the toilet right now.
 

Old Fart

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but as a part of a company that's ISO / Sigma certified I can tell you that corporations can screw stuff up - even if the rules/regs were designed to make things better.

I feel like that's a big reason that Remington and Springfield's QC is in the toilet right now.

I totally agree, it really starts with the employees closet to the product. Without thier buy in nothing really matters. Then you need a program that really works. Plus the promises that someone upstairs doesn't come in a screw it all up.
 

trbii

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I can add an anecdotal story about a top tier 1911 style failure. I ordered a Rock River Arms commander length carry pistol for about $1600.00 and it worked during about a 200 rd. preliminary break in. Then at the end of a two day combat pistol course, at maybe 500-600 rds. out the pipe, the firing pin peened, mashed or somehow deformed on the stop plate, totally failing to fire. One of the trainers disassembled it and told which kind of replacement pin I needed. I was tremendously disappointed and deflated about my "high end" .45 auto. Not long after that I bought a Glock 19. Got maybe 1,000 rds. thru it with not a bobble. It's my new EDC.
 

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