Who will apply for work at Tesla in Tulsa?

[Rez Exelon]

That theory of letting the others deplete their resources has been the mantra for many administrations but it's not working because technology keeps improving with drilling and refining to make that a mute point.
[...]
As far as your thoughts about getting totally off fossil fuels, it can't happen unless there are some batteries that haven't been developed yet. Vehicles and aircraft need to move at night. Military units need a common fuel that allows 100% reliability to operate. They can't stop operations if the sun isn't shining for days at a time and a wind generator isn't possible in the size needed.

The US is in the forefront of oil and gas technology.

I'm not even disagreeing with you on either point, but I think I might be looking further out past my lifetime. In a couple posts earlier I've mentioned that we are definitely not ready for a complete cutover for two reasons --- efficiency of generation and, to your point, the storage capability. They go hand in hand because even if we can store it and run off it for a period, the generation side has to be able to pump the battery back up before the next "on battery" period. Again, why I think have nuclear as a baseload make sense. I'd have to look the numbers up before I feel like I could say it with authority, but I think even now with the advances in O&G nuclear is still a cleaner source. Cost might be higher though because it does get more regulations since "it's so scary".

To your other point, I don't disagree there. I just would rather us be at the forefront of oil and gas technology AND be at the forefront of renewables. Seems like we don't have to be one or the other.

 

[dennishoddy]

I'm not even disagreeing with you on either point, but I think I might be looking further out past my lifetime. In a couple posts earlier I've mentioned that we are definitely not ready for a complete cutover for two reasons --- efficiency of generation and, to your point, the storage capability. They go hand in hand because even if we can store it and run off it for a period, the generation side has to be able to pump the battery back up before the next "on battery" period. Again, why I think have nuclear as a baseload make sense. I'd have to look the numbers up before I feel like I could say it with authority, but I think even now with the advances in O&G nuclear is still a cleaner source. Cost might be higher though because it does get more regulations since "it's so scary".

To your other point, I don't disagree there. I just would rather us be at the forefront of oil and gas technology AND be at the forefront of renewables. Seems like we don't have to be one or the other.

The issue with nuclear is waste. Some of the half life of isotopes is into the millions of years, then another millions of years to completely deplete it.
Waste has to be transported. Typically now its by rail to Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Nobody wants waste to be transported through their states and Nevada doesn't want it stored there in fear of earthquakes or other disasters that might expose it.
Otherwise Nuclear Power is as you described.
I've been to a nuke power plant in Cleveland Ohio for training in the EHC hydraulic system that operates the huge high pressure valves to shut down a turbine due to a fault. Two redundant plants were built and only the first was commissioned because of public lawsuits so they use the second as a training area.
Everyone within a 25 mile radius of the Perry power plant is given the option of a radiation prevention program using blockers and medicine so they can evacuate in event of a failure.
Would you be confident in the safety if they came around and offered you that package when moving into a new home?
The ruskie's screwed the pooch at Cherenoble with a poor design.
3 Mile island in the US also screwed the pooch when they failed to listen to their techs. The instruments told the operators one thing but the techs in the control system said that wasn't possible and advised the opererators to go another route and they refused.
The techs were correct. It was bad instrument readings that caused the issue in a short story. Lots of conspiracy stories out there, but that is the bottom line.

 

[Rez Exelon]

The issue with nuclear is waste. Some of the half life of isotopes is into the millions of years, then another millions of years to completely deplete it.
Waste has to be transported. Typically now its by rail to Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Nobody wants waste to be transported through their states and Nevada doesn't want it stored there in fear of earthquakes or other disasters that might expose it.
Otherwise Nuclear Power is as you described.
I've been to a nuke power plant in Cleveland Ohio for training in the EHC hydraulic system that operates the huge high pressure valves to shut down a turbine due to a fault. Two redundant plants were built and only the first was commissioned because of public lawsuits so they use the second as a training area.
Everyone within a 25 mile radius of the Perry power plant is given the option of a radiation prevention program using blockers and medicine so they can evacuate in event of a failure.
Would you be confident in the safety if they came around and offered you that package when moving into a new home?
The ruskie's screwed the pooch at Cherenoble with a poor design.
3 Mile island in the US also screwed the pooch when they failed to listen to their techs. The instruments told the operators one thing but the techs in the control system said that wasn't possible and advised the opererators to go another route and they refused.
The techs were correct. It was bad instrument readings that caused the issue in a short story. Lots of conspiracy stories out there, but that is the bottom line.

Yet another place where Ol Musky could come in. Imagine if Space X got the cost of launches cheap enough we could fly that ole spider man making juice out to the cosmos

I think a good chunk of the disasters that we've seen in nuclear are definitely human attributable as you say. I see the same thing happen there that I do at any large company though --- instead of regulating the problem, we do these blanket policies that screw everything up. Life if Jeff at company X gets caught trying to expense more hookers and blow than is allowed by policy then company X just says "No more hookers and blow for anyone!" (obviously not a real example). Much like many problems in modern society I think that if education was stronger then a lot of those fears of transport would be gone.

 

[TwoForFlinching]

Y'all are right about the lack of currently viable renewable tech. Batteries are a limiting factor right now in the US. It's ironic that the sheer size of our country prevents the current tech from being efficient. Sure there's power stations and super chargers along the way, but it still comes back to oil and gas providing the power. It's less of a problem in Europe because while the EU is comparable to the US, countries are smaller.

There is hope though. They've developed aluminum-ion batteries that while having 1/3 less voltage than Li-Ion bats, they produce more than double the discharge wattage and can charge in minutes rather than hours, fast charge in seconds. Filling up an EV running on these could be as fast as filling up the truck one day. Their biggest problem they're trying to tackle in that tech is longevity. While the battery is electrically superior by a wide margin, the lifetime is limited by the chemistry... but they're working on it. It's only a matter of time before they crack it. They just need to turn loose the mad scientists.

 

[JD8]

Don't get me wrong, he is a great visionary that has brought progress, but not on my tax money to an individual. He had billions when he started, why not risk his own capitol?

He DID risk his own capital, do your homework. He started fawking car and rocket company and have put out better electric cars and "gasp" better rockets than anyone else. Can NASA land a rocket vertically?


Y'all are so full of chit it's hilarious.

Why are you ignoring the fact that every major car manufacturer, a vast majority of banks, and nearly the entire O&G industry have taken gov handouts too? I don't see you whining about the Toyota Prius? That thing sells like hotcakes and it still gets a $4500 tax credit? https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml How in the world does it deserve a tax credit? Where's the "MuH TAx MoNEy outrage?" Oh that's different... it says right here in the dictionary LOL. Well here you go....sectors that get a "subsidy."

https://www.thebalance.com/government-subsidies-definition-farm-oil-export-etc-3305788

Cmon....let's get pissed boys!!

Where's the "MuH TAx MoNEy" outrage in the Billions the O&G industry gets every year? How in the world do they need the money? Don't see y'all getting pissed about Farmers?

The gov hands out a LOT of money every year to several industries, you may not like it, and I get it, but you can't cherry pick one and act like he's the villain. I'll bet all of you take all the tax deductions you can, and cashed your stimulus checks.

 

[SMS]

I was responding to to post #51 which you clicked the "Like" button on, BTW.

Is it really hypocritical though? That's the question. Solyndra skated on a $535 million dollar loan backed by the DOE and another $25 million to the state of California. How about Solopower? I could go on but, these were actual taxpayer dollars that got just lost along with all the tax breaks and "revenue" that they should have been paying along the way to oblivion. Have any O&G companies met the same fate? I'm not aware of any but could be wrong. Care to discuss wind energy subsidies? Those eyesores wouldn't even exist without all the extra help from the .fed and state commissions because they will never pay back their cost of manufacturing, transportation, erection, maintenance and disposal costs. And they aren't even close to being "green". lol

Right, but we are talking about the hypocrisy of bashing one company for benefiting from government stimulus while ignoring another companies who benefit massively as well...regardless of whether it came in the form of a direct check or not.

Huge LOL to gauging success by how many rockets have blown up. How many disasters and losses has NASA had? How many accidents have been experienced during aircraft and missile development? Many of all of those actually involved loss of life. It's part of the process.

Do some honest research on what industry segments are benefiting from some form of government stimulus (hint: just about all of them), in whatever form, and you'll be shocked. Tesla's $5B is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Shadowrider]

Where's the "MuH TAx MoNEy" outrage in the Billions the O&G industry gets every year? How in the world do they need the money? Don't see y'all getting pissed about Farmers?

You mentioned upthread that O&G has been "subsidized" since their existence (or something like that). You are exactly correct. Why is that? Because in the beginning it was known how the internal combustion engine was going to be a game changer for life as we know it and America needed it's own resources and infrastructure. Guess what? This is still the case. I can't remember a time since horizontal fracking was developed about 20 years ago that we were in as much danger of falling back into dependence on Saudi oil. How do they need the money? They O&G companies are hurting. Badly. That's how. In the coming year you will see quite a few filing bankruptcy.

Meanwhile we have shenanigans like this going on, but first a little background. The Motiva refinery in Port Arthur, TX is the largest refinery in the U.S. and the 5th largest in the world. It is 100% Saudi owned. I've seen various capacities listed but Motiva itself states it can refine 630,000 barrels of oil per day. All of the fuel sold at Shell stations along the gulf and SE coasts is Saudi sourced from this refinery. They bring in their own oil, refine it and sell the fuel through an agreement with Shell. Not one drop as far as I can determine is from U.S. oil.

A Saudi Arabian oil official on Saturday refuted the conclusion of an analytics firm that the country’s oil exports to the U.S. dramatically increased in the last month.

TankerTrackers.com said on Thursday that Saudi Arabian oil exports to the U.S. more than doubled from February to March as oil prices crashed. The firm said its data indicates that the April export figure is on track to surpass March’s number.

An unnamed Saudi oil official who is familiar with the matter denied both conclusions. The official told CNBC that Saudi Arabia’s April allocation for the United States is targeted at around 600,000 barrels per day, a figure which the official said is not a significant increase over the first-quarter monthly average.

TankerTrackers, which uses satellite tracking of VLCCs — the vessels that transport crude — says that Saudi crude shipments to American ports went from an average of 366,000 barrels per day (bpd) in February to 829,540 bpd in March — a multiple of 2.27.

TankerTrackers said that satellite tracking indicates 1.46 million barrels per day of Saudi oil shipped to the U.S. in the first two weeks of April — a figure that would mark four times February’s daily volume and the highest figure since 2014.

According to Saudi state oil producer Aramco’s website, the company was loading 15 tankers for its international customers on April 1 — the day a previous OPEC production cut agreement with its oil-producing allies, OPEC+, expired — supplying the tankers with a record 18.8 million barrels in a single day.

It lit up like a Christmas tree, the whole Eastern Province. All the flares just came back online.
Samir Madani CO-FOUNDER, TANKERTRACKERS.COM

The boost in exports comes against the backdrop of one of the most dramatic periods in oil market history: Record oil output from the world’s largest oil producers juxtaposed with eviscerated demand due to worldwide coronavirus lockdowns as economic activity and global commercial transport came to a screeching halt.

“Towards the end of March I saw massive boosts in gas flaring in the fields in the Eastern Province, so they went pedal to the metal and pumped out as much as possible,” Samir Madani, founder of TankerTrackers.com, told CNBC over the phone Thursday. “It lit up like a Christmas tree, the whole Eastern Province, all the flares just came back online.”

Saudi Arabia’s Eastern Province is home to the world’s largest oil fields and processing facility, and the majority of the kingdom’s production.

Ahead of the April 1 expiration of the previous OPEC+ cutting deal, Saudi Arabia slashed its official selling prices (OSP) to its customers. At the same time, Saudi barrels headed to its top buyer, China, likely had to be re-routed due to China’s extensive lockdown meant to combat the spread of the coronavirus in the country.

“I am guessing that was in the immediate aftermath of the failed OPEC+ meeting at the beginning of March,” Tamas Varga, an oil analyst at PVM Oil Associates, told CNBC. “That’s when Saudis promised to increase production and exports significantly and cut OSP by several dollars.”

In early March, negotiations between OPEC and its allies failed when Russia rejected Saudi Arabia’s terms to cut production in order to boost prices, leading both states to reverse course and set off a price war, with the Saudis increasing production and slashing selling prices for its customers.

The move was so destructive to oil markets — particularly the U.S. shale industry — that U.S. President Donald Trump called on the producers to rein in their output, though he did not do the same for U.S. shale companies, which are now seeing bankruptcies, capex cuts and production shut-ins due to market pressure.

At the same time, China’s demand for oil dropped significantly, as it kept its major economic hubs under lockdown and factories across the country of 1.4 billion remained closed. From February to March, Saudi oil shipments to China fell by nearly 800,000 bpd, picking up again to about 1.3 million bpd in the first half of April.

“As the corona outbreak in China peaked in February, less crude import was contracted, and there is some weeks’ lag between contracting and delivery,” said Per Magnus Nysveen, head of analysis at Rystad Energy. “In the U.S. the refineries were still running full speed in March and some cargoes were therefore diverted to the U.S.”

Ellen Wald, president of Transversal Consulting and an expert on Saudi Aramco, added that this meant that “more oil was therefore available to ship to the U.S., where Aramco owns the largest refinery in the country,” referring to the Motiva refinery in Port Arthur, Texas.

For many American refineries, buying Saudi crude over American shale is also a matter of necessity — older refineries aren’t designed to be able to process the lighter grade crudes coming from U.S. shale patches, and need medium and heavy grade crudes that Saudi Arabia produces, particularly for products like diesel.

OPEC and its allies last Sunday finally agreed to join forces to cut a historic 9.7 million barrels per day from the markets starting in May, in a deal that’s meant to last until 2022 — but oil prices remain depressed, with benchmark Brent crude down 55% year-to-date on Friday morning and holding its 18-year low amid grim outlooks for demand as the pandemic stretches on.

Despite the deal, Saudi Arabia is still cutting its selling prices to many of its customers for May, for instance discounting its flagship Arab Light crude to East Asian customers by $4.20 a barrel compared to April prices. For the U.S., meanwhile, its selling prices are actually increasing to $3 a barrel for its light crude, after a discount of $3.75 between March and April. Its selling prices to Europe between April and May will remain unchanged after cutting prices by between $8 and $13 for April.

Saudi flows to the U.S. “might stay relatively high in April, but should drop in May,” PVM’s Varga said.

If I were Trump I'd slap a tariff on the Saudis so fast it would make their head spin but I'd give them 3 options.

Option A:
I would set a price that U.S. companies could operate at a profit on and do this: Base Price - WTI Price = Saudi Tariff Assessed. I'd then give the tariff money to the states affected proportionately to be used for the O&G companies to make sure they are ongoing concerns.

Option B: For every barrel they bring in they take out 1.1 barrels of our oil. So if they bring in 100,000 they leave with 110,000 of our oil in their tankers to whatever country they choose to sell it to, subject to our national security concerns of course. Price adjusted for level playing field (see option A).

Option C: I'd take federal control of the Motiva refinery, lock it down, reconfigure it to refine our own light sweet crude and then hand it back to the Saudis with a bill for the retrofit.

Wind, Solar and Batteries ain't fixing any of this any time soon. Not in ours or our children's lifetimes anyway.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/17/sau...s-skyrocketed-amid-coronavirus-lockdowns.html
https://www.motiva.com/About/What-We-Do/Refining

 

[JD8]

You mentioned upthread that O&G has been "subsidized" since their existence (or something like that). You are exactly correct. Why is that? Because in the beginning it was known how the internal combustion engine was going to be a game changer for life as we know it and America needed it's own resources and infrastructure. Guess what? This is still the case. I can't remember a time since horizontal fracking was developed about 20 years ago that we were in as much danger of falling back into dependence on Saudi oil. How do they need the money? They O&G companies are hurting. Badly. That's how. In the coming year you will see quite a few filing bankruptcy.

Meanwhile we have shenanigans like this going on, but first a little background. The Motiva refinery in Port Arthur, TX is the largest refinery in the U.S. and the 5th largest in the world. It is 100% Saudi owned. I've seen various capacities listed but Motiva itself states it can refine 630,000 barrels of oil per day. All of the fuel sold at Shell stations along the gulf and SE coasts is Saudi sourced from this refinery. They bring in their own oil, refine it and sell the fuel through an agreement with Shell. Not one drop as far as I can determine is from U.S. oil.



If I were Trump I'd slap a tariff on the Saudis so fast it would make their head spin but I'd give them 3 options.

Option A:
I would set a price that U.S. companies could operate at a profit on and do this: Base Price - WTI Price = Saudi Tariff Assessed. I'd then give the tariff money to the states affected proportionately to be used for the O&G companies to make sure they are ongoing concerns.

Option B: For every barrel they bring in they take out 1.1 barrels of our oil. So if they bring in 100,000 they leave with 110,000 of our oil in their tankers to whatever country they choose to sell it to, subject to our national security concerns of course. Price adjusted for level playing field (see option A).

Option C: I'd take federal control of the Motiva refinery, lock it down, reconfigure it to refine our own light sweet crude and then hand it back to the Saudis with a bill for the retrofit.

Wind, Solar and Batteries ain't fixing any of this any time soon. Not in ours or our children's lifetimes anyway.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/17/sau...s-skyrocketed-amid-coronavirus-lockdowns.html
https://www.motiva.com/About/What-We-Do/Refining

I'm not really sure why you follow these red herrings to fit your bias towards renewable energy but it really has nothing to do with the point. Hence naming several other business sectors. I'm sure you could find reasons as to why O&G companies are given handouts, but I could also give 8923928 examples as to how many O&G companies have been run badly and don't deserve them. None of this matters though.

Back on point. Do they take the government's money, in one form or another? Yes. Does Musk? Yes. Do many other companies? Yes. They'd be stupid not to, someone else will. However, again, it doesn't make Musk any worse than said companies.

 

[Shadowrider]

I'm not really sure why you follow these red herrings to fit your bias towards renewable energy but it really has nothing to do with the point. Hence naming several other business sectors. I'm sure you could find reasons as to why O&G companies are given handouts, but I could also give 8923928 examples as to how many O&G companies have been run badly and don't deserve them. None of this matters though.

Back on point. Do they take the government's money, in one form or another? Yes. Does Musk? Yes. Do many other companies? Yes. They'd be stupid not to, someone else will. However, again, it doesn't make Musk any worse than said companies.

Red Herrings? Renewable energy is just that! At least in the the context of any foreseeable future.

So with that in mind, O&G is a technology that's vital to our way of life AND our national security. We have it right now, it works and it's available for multiple generations to come. So... I guess I just fail to see the need to subsidize it's replacement with federal tax dollars. Perhaps in 75 years we should take a look at it but for now it's just a load bullchit being put on our plate and told it's vegetables that we have to eat. If renewables can make it on their own, then fine. Do that and good luck. But I'm not in support of subsidizing anything we don't really have a compelling need for.

 

[JD8]

Red Herrings? Renewable energy is just that! At least in the the context of any foreseeable future.

So with that in mind, O&G is a technology that's vital to our way of life AND our national security. We have it right now, it works and it's available for multiple generations to come. So... I guess I just fail to see the need to subsidize it's replacement with federal tax dollars. Perhaps in 75 years we should take a look at it but for now it's just a load bullchit being put on our plate and told it's vegetables that we have to eat. If renewables can make it on their own, then fine. Do that and good luck. But I'm not in support of subsidizing anything we don't really have a compelling need for.

What's with the obsession about replacing oil and gas, I'm not making that argument LOL. You're off on your 75 year timeline but that's another thread. Reusable rockets that can take off and land vertically aren't important to our defense? Glad the DOD thinks more outside the box than you do. Battery tech isn't important? Yes, Solar power tech is important too. Still, none of this matters, Musk does what literally everyone else does and takes what is there. Just like banks, car manufacturers, farmers, O&G, etc.