Who will apply for work at Tesla in Tulsa?

[Shadowrider]

Right. So follow along. Folks attack Tesla for benefiting from some form of government stimulus...whatever people chose to call it, or whatever form it takes. We call them out for being hypocritical and not applying the same standards to the O&G industry and you chimed in and said show me where O&G ever took a check written by the U.S. government.

How is that relevant unless you were implying that Tesla had or that O&G not having received such a check cleared them of receiving any stimulus?

I was responding to to post #51 which you clicked the "Like" button on, BTW.

Is it really hypocritical though? That's the question. Solyndra skated on a $535 million dollar loan backed by the DOE and another $25 million to the state of California. How about Solopower? I could go on but, these were actual taxpayer dollars that got just lost along with all the tax breaks and "revenue" that they should have been paying along the way to oblivion. Have any O&G companies met the same fate? I'm not aware of any but could be wrong. Care to discuss wind energy subsidies? Those eyesores wouldn't even exist without all the extra help from the .fed and state commissions because they will never pay back their cost of manufacturing, transportation, erection, maintenance and disposal costs. And they aren't even close to being "green". lol

 

[TwoForFlinching]

If the number were truly half a trillion, I'd probably be impressed.

 

[crrcboatz]

Well for me personally and not speaking for anyone else or trying to , there are givers and takers in this world. Teslas founder is a powerful TAKER because he’s smart enough to convince Washington they need him. Now blame that on the idiots in Washington we send there or his innate ability to fool them. Which one do I think it is well I’ve already tipped my hat on that with the word idiot I used earlier .

 

[Rez Exelon]

It was 535 million. As of 2014 the loan program was turning a profit. 34.2 billion loaned out in total, 780 million defaulted on (including Solyndra) but had received 810 million in interest. So the program was running in the black.

As far as a program designed to push R&D research, I'd think that's pretty good. Usually R&D is a money pit until one of the brilliant ideas or technologies gets out of there and makes it to a commercially viable success. Especially in terms of clean energy, there will absolutely be losses and the need for "subsidies" (no matter how one defines the word) because it's an industry in infancy which nearly always means losses. But if money wasn't funneled in there, the technology would never advance.

On the other hand, if we keep just relying on fossil fuels, we know that we're trusting a finite resource. No matter when we hit peak oil, we WILL hit peak oil at some point. My thought it is that I'd like us as a species to get ahead of that, convert to clean (renewable) energy and then hold onto fossil fuels as a backup.

 

[crrcboatz]

It was 535 million. As of 2014 the loan program was turning a profit. 34.2 billion loaned out in total, 780 million defaulted on (including Solyndra) but had received 810 million in interest. So the program was running in the black.

As far as a program designed to push R&D research, I'd think that's pretty good. Usually R&D is a money pit until one of the brilliant ideas or technologies gets out of there and makes it to a commercially viable success. Especially in terms of clean energy, there will absolutely be losses and the need for "subsidies" (no matter how one defines the word) because it's an industry in infancy which nearly always means losses. But if money wasn't funneled in there, the technology would never advance.

On the other hand, if we keep just relying on fossil fuels, we know that we're trusting a finite resource. No matter when we hit peak oil, we WILL hit peak oil at some point. My thought it is that I'd like us as a species to get ahead of that, convert to clean (renewable) energy and then hold onto fossil fuels as a backup.

So glad I won’t live to see that faithful day when the green new deal is all we have left. That will be far more than ANY of us can begin to imagine and it won’t be pretty

 

[TwoForFlinching]

On the other hand, if we keep just relying on fossil fuels, we know that we're trusting a finite resource. No matter when we hit peak oil, we WILL hit peak oil at some point. My thought it is that I'd like us as a species to get ahead of that, convert to clean (renewable) energy and then hold onto fossil fuels as a backup.

That's where I stand on the issue too. I'm sure someone will be in here soon to talk about how clean energy isn't clean, how it requires more energy to create products to conserve it, the regular O&G talking points. Energy in any form is good with me, but I dread the day renewables fall so far behind we're left with ridiculous levels of fossil fuel costs.

 

[Rez Exelon]

That's where I stand on the issue too. I'm sure someone will be in here soon to talk about how clean energy isn't clean, how it requires more energy to create products to conserve it, the regular O&G talking points. Energy in any form is good with me, but I dread the day renewables fall so far behind we're left with ridiculous levels of fossil fuel costs.

I've always been a big believe in nuke-u-lur (Dubya anyone?) as a base load. Except for the fact that the public is panicky over it because it's so scary, it's to me the best balance of a scaling, low pollution source of power we have until the technologies for higher efficiency renewable production and battery storage are at commercial grade. And by "it's so scary" I of course mean "It is perceived as scary even while I don't think the numbers at all back up that belief".

 

[TerryMiller]

While I've never been in the oil and gas business, other than delivering it to farms, I do know that the discussion of "when we will run out of oil" has changed mightily over the years. It seems that every few decades, someone comes up and states that oil is only good for another "X" number of years. However, it always seems that as new technology comes along, those dates just keep on getting pushed back and that it looks like we will have many more decades of fossil fuels to work with.

 

[dennishoddy]

While I've never been in the oil and gas business, other than delivering it to farms, I do know that the discussion of "when we will run out of oil" has changed mightily over the years. It seems that every few decades, someone comes up and states that oil is only good for another "X" number of years. However, it always seems that as new technology comes along, those dates just keep on getting pushed back and that it looks like we will have many more decades of fossil fuels to work with.

Exactly. When my dad was in college at OSU in the 40's the last known oil reserve would peter out in the 70's.
It's a fact that wind power would fold in a heartbeat without the government backing it with tax dollars.
For those that don't think so, jump on your congress folks to force that "energy" source to spin on its own to live or die.
It will die shortly and there will be thousands of monuments to this boondoggle left for the landowners to take care of.

Los Angeles entrepreneur Elon Musk has built a multibillion-dollar fortune running companies that make electric cars, sell solar panels and launch rockets into space.

And he’s built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times. The figure underscores a common theme running through his emerging empire: a public-private financing model underpinning long-shot start-ups.

He definitely goes where there is government money,” said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. “That’s a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day.”

The figure compiled by The Times comprises a variety of government incentives, including grants, tax breaks, factory construction, discounted loans and environmental credits that Tesla can sell. It also includes tax credits and rebates to buyers of solar panels and electric cars.

A looming question is whether the companies are moving toward self-sufficiency — as Dolev believes — and whether they can slash development costs before the public largesse ends.

Tesla and SolarCity continue to report net losses after a decade in business, but the stocks of both companies have soared on their potential; Musk’s stake in the firms alone is worth about $10 billion. (SpaceX, a private company, does not publicly report financial performance.)

Musk and his companies’ investors enjoy most of the financial upside of the government support, while taxpayers shoulder the cost.

Musk might have started PayPal but the board of directors threw him out of his own company.

Musk was also thrown out as CEO of zip2.
His rockets continue to explode as late as February of this year. I have posted pics of that failure. We drove by it on the way to the Boca Chica gun range.

His rockets exploded on his first attempt in 2006, second in 2007, on the second launch attempt, third in 2008 with NASA satellites aboard costing taxpayers additional millions.
2013 1st failure landing in the ocean
2014, Tesla’s were burning up with spontaneous combustion from battery issues.
2015 4th rocket explosion at launch. 2nd and third explosions when landing on a drone ship.
2016, Tesla vehicles delayed 18 months.
2016, 5th rocket exploded with Facebook satellites worth $300 million.
2016, 4th, 5th, and 6th critical failures while landing on a drone ship.
Musk says UFO’s could have been the problem.
WTF??
His failures and government bailouts just continue.

I'll concede that failure for some leads to success by learning from failures, but most successes haven't been on the wing of the taxpayer for so long for so much as Elon Musk.
His accomplishments have been as a thinker. He hired the expertise that has made him successful and caused him to fail.

 

[TwoForFlinching]

I've always been a big believe in nuke-u-lur (Dubya anyone?) as a base load. Except for the fact that the public is panicky over it because it's so scary, it's to me the best balance of a scaling, low pollution source of power we have until the technologies for higher efficiency renewable production and battery storage are at commercial grade. And by "it's so scary" I of course mean "It is perceived as scary even while I don't think the numbers at all back up that belief".

Couldn't say it better myself. The problem with most people is the mindset of accepting change. Sure, G&O is at a fever pitch of technology now. It's cleaner and more efficient than ever. It's been the status quo for so long, people forget the development process it took to get here. They forget oil produced only 30hp once. And oil change was only good for 3k miles once. Coal used to churn out black smokey smog. Even the drool-worthy muscle cars of their heyday couldn't hold candles to some bottom tier vehicles nowadays. They forget in this time of clean and efficient fossil energy what it took to get here, and are comfortable ditching alternative resources in their practical infancy because the technology that will allow it to replace comfortable fossil energy is still being developed.

These are the same people that complain about the lack of engineering and manufacturing in our country, then turn around and insist we stop manufacturing so-called "liberal energy." It's like the american spirit has been broken among them. They forget that there is absolutely no obstacle America can't overcome.