Wisconsin protest, a sign of things to come?

[1shot(bob)]

Bob... back door deals? I wont say there has never been any of that kind of thing going on.

OK, so we agree on that part.

Most of the bad stuff that gives Unions a bad rap gets you sent to Federal prision these days. In short order.

And a lot of the time it doesn't, it gets your contract settled and you back to work.

YOU really need to look up what defines a conspiracy or collusion. When you make tactics or stategy to win a business plan.... those actions are neither.

How about this one: Practices that eliminate competition, such as collusive bidding, may result in criminal, civil, and/or administrative action against the participants.
www.ustreas.gov/auctions/treasury/rp/generalterms.shtml
When you make agreements that everyone must follow the same rules or not play the game, often at the threat of physical harm, you are 'colluding' according to this definition. Unions attempt to remove any competitive bidding on getting a job done.

You probably should look up what a 'red herring' is in debate. It's an intellectual flaw where the question is asked... answers are made.. and the next question takes a subtle shift off topice... a mental bait and switch.

You saw a red herring? Where? You may disagree with my analogy, or actually my question, about the difference between 'collusion' and what unions do, but you can not call it a red herring. It is very relevant to this discussion. Would you care to answer the question?

It's not becoming... and you really seem to be smarter than that, Bob.

That's the second thing you have said that I agree with. Thank you.

 

[1shot(bob)]

Actually I am not willing to take the risk. One in 5 small business fail (for reasons of finance) within 5 years.

Most people aren't.

I keep seeing a recurring theme here: If you dont like it quit. Or the other variation- Start your own shop.

If we extend the logical outcome... If everyone who could do either did it- we would have a society where the economy is basically 2 guys sitting in Mc Donalds selling insurance to each other.

Not necessarily. Not everyone can make a business successful. In fact, most can't. That fact alone will disallow your scenario.

Not every body can be the Cheif... but you got to keep the Indians fed.

Hijack a business. Now point me to a link where the big bad UNION hijacked a business? When a business gets "organized" it usually because the employees have been shorted or double dealt with till they band together to make things better. Getting a Union in place is a hard thing to do. If it was easy we'd probably have more of them.

The entire automotive industry?
Maybe it's because the only 'thought' they were getting robbed. Union bosses and lackeys are pretty good at convincing people of that 'fact'.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Most people aren't.



Not necessarily. Not everyone can make a business successful. In fact, most can't. That fact alone will disallow your scenario.



The entire automotive industry?
Maybe it's because the only 'thought' they were getting robbed. Union bosses and lackeys are pretty good at convincing people of that 'fact'.

Bob...keep up. Not my scenario- I am adressing the theme expressed by so many folks in this thread. In fact... because not everyone has the tools to run a business is the very reason we need a middle class who can make a living, buy cars and houses, and pay taxes working "for the man".

As far as Auto goes... the UAW and Big 3 are a match made in heaven. And what goes on there (especially what went on back in the 60's and 70's) is what folks like you live and die on when you argue the antio labor platform.
If 8% of the US work force pays dues... Auto is a pretty thin sliver of the total problem.

Hell.... much of what what passes for "Auto" also takes in die casting shops, rubber works , nut and bolt suppliers... and the vast majority of those jobs have never been in UNION shops ever.

Ever hear of Delco-Saginaw Gear? They were the chassis branch of GM. They were one of the few divisions running a profit and they were sold a couple of years ago. TRW bought it... kept the UAW...kept the contract in place. Then they emptied the offices of non union folks... like paper drafts men who did'nt draft any thing since CAD came in years ago... and dozens of mid managers.

Out on the floor...TRW ENFORCED their side of the existing contract... fired a bunch of violators and dead beats, hired new folks... and made even more profits than GM ever thought of. So quit telling me about auto. Every other union in the country knows they were the elephant in the room.

 

[elwoodtrix]

he might have been a mid manager jef...

main reason the big 3 are failing.... oil...

 

[carbon]

Hello all. I found this site when this thread was only on page 5. I signed up because of all the info on this site and to comment on the unions issues.

I don't get all of the union bashing going on here. American Unions are the primary reason for the standard of living in the civilized world. Unions built this country and made it a superpower. Instead of complaining about every dumb thing that some union did, thank them for your pay, benefits, and your retirement first.

Unions do have problems but blaming them for all of America's ills is ridiculous. The truth is unions are unsustainable with so called "free" trade. Unions cannot compete with slave labor like China and the other half of the world. BUT, neither can any American job. Even McDonald's wages and no benefits can't compete with slave labor. If that doesn't change, we are finished.

That's my opinion. Thanks and enjoy the "global" economy.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

American auto lost the will to innovate and compete .... Most of the European and Japanese companies have forgot what got them to the dance to.

 

[Nraman]

Hello all. I found this site when this thread was only on page 5. I signed up because of all the info on this site and to comment on the unions issues.

I don't get all of the union bashing going on here. American Unions are the primary reason for the standard of living in the civilized world. Unions built this country and made it a superpower. Instead of complaining about every dumb thing that some union did, thank them for your pay, benefits, and your retirement first.

Unions do have problems but blaming them for all of America's ills is ridiculous. The truth is unions are unsustainable with so called "free" trade. Unions cannot compete with slave labor like China and the other half of the world. BUT, neither can any American job. Even McDonald's wages and no benefits can't compete with slave labor. If that doesn't change, we are finished.

That's my opinion. Thanks and enjoy the "global" economy.

Good points, the US economy is about to slide to third place in the world. As things continue to fall apart, I hope all those "free trade" believers understand the true cost of cheap imports.

 

[JB Books]

We are addicted to the processed food, reality TV and our sense of entitlement. All sold to us a million different ways every waking hour.

Who needs to think about the working man? It's time for a pizza, pop and American Idol.

 

[Michael Brown]

Hello all. I found this site when this thread was only on page 5. I signed up because of all the info on this site and to comment on the unions issues.

I don't get all of the union bashing going on here. American Unions are the primary reason for the standard of living in the civilized world. Unions built this country and made it a superpower. Instead of complaining about every dumb thing that some union did, thank them for your pay, benefits, and your retirement first.

Unions do have problems but blaming them for all of America's ills is ridiculous. The truth is unions are unsustainable with so called "free" trade. Unions cannot compete with slave labor like China and the other half of the world. BUT, neither can any American job. Even McDonald's wages and no benefits can't compete with slave labor. If that doesn't change, we are finished.

That's my opinion. Thanks and enjoy the "global" economy.

Yup.

Michael Brown

 

[1shot(bob)]

Bob...keep up. Not my scenario- I am adressing the theme expressed by so many folks in this thread. In fact... because not everyone has the tools to run a business is the very reason we need a middle class who can make a living, buy cars and houses, and pay taxes working "for the man".

I'm keeping up as best I can.
I know we need a middle class. Hell, I'm one of them. What you can't, or won't, do can be done by someone else. This guy puts everything he has on a business plan. He works his ass off to make it viable. What he doesn't need is some group of people telling him how to run his business or pay his people. It's his business. Do it his way or go elsewhere. He doesn't hire the middle class so they can start dictating his business decisions.

As far as Auto goes... the UAW and Big 3 are a match made in heaven. And what goes on there (especially what went on back in the 60's and 70's) is what folks like you live and die on when you argue the antio labor platform.
If 8% of the US work force pays dues... Auto is a pretty thin sliver of the total problem.

Hell.... much of what what passes for "Auto" also takes in die casting shops, rubber works , nut and bolt suppliers... and the vast majority of those jobs have never been in UNION shops ever.

You asked a question, I gave an answer. Does that stuff no longer happen?

Ever hear of Delco-Saginaw Gear? They were the chassis branch of GM. They were one of the few divisions running a profit and they were sold a couple of years ago. TRW bought it... kept the UAW...kept the contract in place. Then they emptied the offices of non union folks... like paper drafts men who did'nt draft any thing since CAD came in years ago... and dozens of mid managers.

Out on the floor...TRW ENFORCED their side of the existing contract... fired a bunch of violators and dead beats, hired new folks... and made even more profits than GM ever thought of. So quit telling me about auto. Every other union in the country knows they were the elephant in the room.

Everybody knows about DSG, therefor they are not a good answer. What percentage of the union workforce are they? Higher or lower than 8%?