Marines Choose 9mm Glock 19 OVER .45 ACP 1911 for Special Operators

[druryj]

Guns are inherently safe, people are dangerous or safe.

Guns are designed to fire when the trigger is pulled, if you don't want it to go off don't pull the trigger. Also, not only can a finger pull a trigger but so can miscellaneous objects so put the gun in a holster.

I am always careful when I Mexican carry my Glock, especially AIWB.


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[HiredHand]

This is pretty close to the version that was told to me.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/legends/rjthomas.htm

Oft times, comments on this net are about GySgt. Carlos Hathcock’s sniping adventures in Vietnam. Here’s one that very few know about, but is probably just as good as far as accuracy during combat is concerned.

A Navy SEAL Team was returning from a mission over North Vietnam in a chopper when it got hit pretty bad. The pilot and one crew member were killed and the copilot was wounded. Going into autorotation, the copilot managed to set the chopper down in a clearing. After landing, a few rounds of enemy fire were starting to come in. Seems the M60s were also damaged beyond use by the crash landing and initial RPG hit, the only M16 fell out on the way down.

The only firearms left was M1911s.The remaining crew member was carrying a match conditioned M1911 and had a few boxes of ammo. As more enemy small arms fire started coming in, the copilot and crew member also noted that the VC were coming out of the jungle and approaching them; shooting as they came. The crew member took out his .45 and took careful aim as he shot at each attacking VC. About 30 minutes later it was all over. Between reloading magazines and radioing for rescue, the copilot was pretty busy, but a rescue chopper finally arrived on the scene.

As the rescue chopper came in and landed, its crew noticed a lot of dead VC laying around. The downed helo’s remaining crew were picked up and on their way out, they counted the dead VC; 37 in all. Their distances from the downed helo were from 3 to about 150 yards; all shot by the crew member with his M1911 .45 ACP. About 80 rounds were fired by Petty Officer R.J. Thomas, a member of the USN Rifle and Pistol Team.

Petty Officer Thomas was recommended for the Congressional Medal of Honor, but by the time the recommendation got all the way up through the chain of command, the recognition was reduced to the Navy Cross.

This incident has been cited this as the only known of example of top-level combat marksmanship since SGT Alvin York’s escapades in WWI.

Submitted by Mark Eberhard-CEO & President
LtCol. USMCR (Ret.)
American Marksman Group
(850) 626-9963
Visit: www.americanmarksman.com

 

[YukonGlocker]

Good story...I've never heard that one before.

 

[dennishoddy]

“The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the “knock down power” to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound.” - https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ar...over-45-caliber-pistols-for-special-operators

The myths never seem to die. I think it was the excellent Primary and Secondary podcast (thanks YG for posting that) with DocGKR that I was listening to where he said that the DoD essentially ignored and buried the report on wound ballistics that he and a panel of experts wrote because it didn't fit with what their agenda.

The bottom line in any current selection is this, quoted from the link.
The .45-caliber round is also more expensive than its 9mm counterpart, Clapperton said. For all of these reasons, the FBI is moving from Smith & Wesson .40-caliber pistols back to 9mm handguns, he said.

Follow the money, and budgets. They could give a crap about lethality or anything else. Its about the budget.

 

[dennishoddy]

The venerable .45 ACP is so versatile that is can also be used as an anti aircraft weapon. Lets see the puny 9mm do this!

https://www.truthorfiction.com/owen-john-baggett-killed-japanese-pilot-mid-air/

When the plane was severely damaged by enemy fighters, Jansen gave the order for the crew to bail out, which Baggett conveyed through hand signals because the intercom had been destroyed. Baggett parachuted from the plane, and, Air Force Magazine reports:

The Japanese pilots immediately began strafing the surviving crewmen, apparently killing some of them and grazing Lieutenant Baggett’s arm. The pilot who had hit Baggett circled to finish him off or perhaps only to get a better look at his victim. Baggett pretended to be dead, hoping the Zero pilot would not fire again. In any event, the pilot opened his canopy and approached within feet of Baggett’s chute, nose up and on the verge of a stall. Baggett, enraged by the strafing of his helpless crewmates, raised the .45 automatic concealed against his leg and fired four shots at the open cockpit. The Zero stalled and spun in.

After Baggett hit the ground, enemy pilots continued to strafe him, but he escaped by hiding behind a tree. Lieutenant Jensen and one of the gunners landed near him. All three were captured by the Burmese and turned over to the Japanese. Sergeant Crostic also survived the bailout. Baggett and Jensen were flown out of Burma in an enemy bomber and imprisoned near Singapore.

 

[YukonGlocker]

The bottom line in any current selection is this, quoted from the link.
The .45-caliber round is also more expensive than its 9mm counterpart, Clapperton said. For all of these reasons, the FBI is moving from Smith & Wesson .40-caliber pistols back to 9mm handguns, he said.

Follow the money, and budgets. They could give a crap about lethality or anything else. Its about the budget.

If it was only about the budget, they'd train with and carry .22lr. There is zero evidence that, with modern ammo, .40 or .45 is any more lethal than 9mm, out of a handgun.

 

[dennishoddy]

If it was only about the budget, they'd train with and carry .22lr. There is zero evidence that, with modern ammo, .40 or .45 is any more lethal than 9mm, out of a handgun.

That's not true. The .22 analogy a stretch
They are considering the three calibers, and .22 is not in the picture. With that in mind, follow the money and the budgetary comments of the link. They could care less about anything but the cost.

 

[dennishoddy]

There is zero evidence that, with modern ammo, .40 or .45 is any more lethal than 9mm, out of a handgun.

Are you talking ball ammo required by the military, or modern ammo that is not allowed under the Geneva convention for our military folks? There is a major difference when apples are compared to apples.
Ball ammo is ball ammo. It is not modern ammo.
The same argument comes when comparing the lethality of a .223 using FMJ vs modern SP and HP ammo.

 

[YukonGlocker]

Are you talking ball ammo required by the military, or modern ammo that is not allowed under the Geneva convention for our military folks? There is a major difference when apples are compared to apples.
Ball ammo is ball ammo. It is not modern ammo.
The same argument comes when comparing the lethality of a .223 using FMJ vs modern SP and HP ammo.

You made a comment about the FBI, which can use modern ammo. I'd love to see the evidence that .40/.45 is more lethal than 9mm; I've studied this for years, and it doesn't exist (to my knowledge). In a great deal of both (a) scientific ballistic tests, and (b) actual shootings, 9mm has demonstrated to work just as well.

 

[dennishoddy]

The comment was about ball ammo vs modern SP and HP ammo that everybody but the military can use. I've studied it for years myself.