When Islam infiltrates the US

[tomthebaker]

The Old Testament provides a historical narrative that includes violent acts. No where are believers directed to do likewise. Unlike the Koran, which calls for violence against all unbelievers.

There's no call to violence in the NT either. As usual, YG's poor attempt at equivocation to justify the acts of Islamists falls way short. He won't defend his statement because it doesn't hold up.

 

[Ace_on_the_Turn]

The Old Testament provides a historical narrative that includes violent acts. No where are believers directed to do likewise. Unlike the Koran, which calls for violence against all unbelievers.

There's no call to violence in the NT either. As usual, YG's poor attempt at equivocation to justify the acts of Islamists falls way short. He won't defend his statement because it doesn't hold up.

There are levels of wrong. You're wrong on a level that is hard for mere mortals to grasp.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

And just for fun, kill anyone that works on the sabbath:

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

 

[D. Hargrove]

Now the decision whether to abide by these things in the Bible is the choice of each individual. Just as the Muslim has the choice to abide by the same type commands in the Quran. Arguments may be made on all sides; however, there lies very little difference in the writings with regard to non-believers. Acceptance of acts of followers is governed by their nation. Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabi Muslims as a State, therefore they support these actions. The United States is more a melting pot of numerous religious beliefs that lends itself to the moral high ground that these things are wrong, illegal and immoral.

 

[lasher]

the old testament is a hard lesson. the poor fellow who was killed and eaten by bears simply because he whacked off and that pissed god off.

but the new testament is supposed to be the new covenant founded on "love your fellow man", literally that sounds kinda gay, but i presume the transcribers meant to say humankind

 

[sanjuro893]

The Old Testament provides a historical narrative that includes violent acts. No where are believers directed to do likewise. Unlike the Koran, which calls for violence against all unbelievers.

There's no call to violence in the NT either. As usual, YG's poor attempt at equivocation to justify the acts of Islamists falls way short. He won't defend his statement because it doesn't hold up.

There was no way in hell I was gonna post this but Tom and I have had good, level-headed convos about faith in other threads so here goes....
The Koran does not call for violence against all unbelievers. The accepted teaching in Sunni, Shia and Sufi teaching is that you can only do violence on another to defend yourself, in a war, or as an execution. If you read the entire Surah At-Tawbah (or verse of the sword), they're talking about a war in Mecca in which a treaty was broken, so God calls on the believers to kill all the pagans (unbelievers). The verses right after that says to spare anybody who asks for protection or who has upheld the treaty. https://quran.com/9
The fact that this has been selectively taken out of context to justify the mass murder of innocents is beyond f---ed up. Murder, even of non-believers is forbidden. (Ayah 60:8 and Ayah 2:256) Even in WAR, Muslims are not allowed to murder women and children.... and trees for some reason. Please don't do what ISIS does and likewise selectively take one verse out of context to paint the entire faith as such.

That all being said, I still agree that the non-extremist factions of Muslims need to speak out more against the extremist factions. Whether they should be considered apostates, I don't know, but I also think that engaging them on their turf, going to a mosque on a Friday night and talking to the local IMAM will go a lot further to make that happen rather than perpetuating a falsehood based on a widely misunderstood verse.

 

[Glocktogo]

There was no way in hell I was gonna post this but Tom and I have had good, level-headed convos about faith in other threads so here goes....
The Koran does not call for violence against all unbelievers. The accepted teaching in Sunni, Shia and Sufi teaching is that you can only do violence on another to defend yourself, in a war, or as an execution. If you read the entire Surah At-Tawbah (or verse of the sword), they're talking about a war in Mecca in which a treaty was broken, so God calls on the believers to kill all the pagans (unbelievers). The verses right after that says to spare anybody who asks for protection or who has upheld the treaty. https://quran.com/9
The fact that this has been selectively taken out of context to justify the mass murder of innocents is beyond f---ed up. Murder, even of non-believers is forbidden. (Ayah 60:8 and Ayah 2:256) Even in WAR, Muslims are not allowed to murder women and children.... and trees for some reason. Please don't do what ISIS does and likewise selectively take one verse out of context to paint the entire faith as such.

That all being said, I still agree that the non-extremist factions of Muslims need to speak out more against the extremist factions. Whether they should be considered apostates, I don't know, but I also think that engaging them on their turf, going to a mosque on a Friday night and talking to the local IMAM will go a lot further to make that happen rather than perpetuating a falsehood based on a widely misunderstood verse.

As I posted in the other thread, the Surah At-Tawbah only allows for devout Muslims to spare non-believers in a war IF they meet specific criteria (which most of us will not meet). Many Muslims today consider themselves in a war with the rest of the world. Of those, a few have been convinced that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi IS the Caliph spoken of in the Silsilah Hadith, and have vowed to follow him as their leader even when it contradicts other verses in the Koran. Even among the peaceful, devout Muslims (majority), the Silsilah Hadith gives them every reason to NOT call ISIS Apostasy. Since Apostasy is really the only effective means for peaceful Muslims to oppose the Caliphate, al-Baghdadi has them over a barrel. So regardless of what you're saying, this is absolutely an Islam problem, which only Islam can correct.

 

[sanjuro893]

As I posted in the other thread, the Surah At-Tawbah only allows for devout Muslims to spare non-believers in a war IF they meet specific criteria (which most of us will not meet). Many Muslims today consider themselves in a war with the rest of the world. Of those, a few have been convinced that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi IS the Caliph spoken of in the Silsilah Hadith, and have vowed to follow him as their leader even when it contradicts other verses in the Koran. Even among the peaceful, devout Muslims (majority), the Silsilah Hadith gives them every reason to NOT call ISIS Apostasy. Since Apostasy is really the only effective means for peaceful Muslims to oppose the Caliphate, al-Baghdadi has them over a barrel. So regardless of what you're saying, this is absolutely an Islam problem, which only Islam can correct.

And I gotta disagree with you on both counts. Where is that "specific criteria" in the Surah At-Tawbah?

As I said in the other thread, I think you're partially right about Muslims coming out and condemning this as apostasy or something but sitting on OUR haunches, waiting for them to act when they decide to act is counterproductive. Especially when there is so much mis-information spread amongst US about what THEY believe. That just gives Abu-Buttface more propaganda to recruit more followers. That's why we gotta engage them, talk to them, get involved, ask questions, etc.

 

[YukonGlocker]

And I gotta disagree with you on both counts. Where is that "specific criteria" in the Surah At-Tawbah?

As I said in the other thread, I think you're partially right about Muslims coming out and condemning this as apostasy or something but sitting on OUR haunches, waiting for them to act when they decide to act is counterproductive. Especially when there is so much mis-information spread amongst US about what THEY believe. That just gives Abu-Buttface more propaganda to recruit more followers. That's why we gotta engage them, talk to them, get involved, ask questions, etc.

agreed

 

[tomthebaker]

There was no way in hell I was gonna post this but Tom and I have had good, level-headed convos about faith in other threads so here goes....
The Koran does not call for violence against all unbelievers. The accepted teaching in Sunni, Shia and Sufi teaching is that you can only do violence on another to defend yourself, in a war, or as an execution. If you read the entire Surah At-Tawbah (or verse of the sword), they're talking about a war in Mecca in which a treaty was broken, so God calls on the believers to kill all the pagans (unbelievers). The verses right after that says to spare anybody who asks for protection or who has upheld the treaty. https://quran.com/9
The fact that this has been selectively taken out of context to justify the mass murder of innocents is beyond f---ed up. Murder, even of non-believers is forbidden. (Ayah 60:8 and Ayah 2:256) Even in WAR, Muslims are not allowed to murder women and children.... and trees for some reason. Please don't do what ISIS does and likewise selectively take one verse out of context to paint the entire faith as such.

That all being said, I still agree that the non-extremist factions of Muslims need to speak out more against the extremist factions. Whether they should be considered apostates, I don't know, but I also think that engaging them on their turf, going to a mosque on a Friday night and talking to the local IMAM will go a lot further to make that happen rather than perpetuating a falsehood based on a widely misunderstood verse.

The earlier written passages of th Koran are supplanted by the later ones. The command to slay unbelievers is later.

 

[Rooster1971]

Wouldn't the extremists have to renounce Islam to be considered or called an apostate?

I'm sure they think think they are carrying out God's word.