Army wants to dump the M9?

[Shadowrider]

Angel Alvarez in ICU after taking two dozen Gold Dots.


8 days later he walked unassisted to his courtroom hearing.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gvxysQyT1H6ysdU5OaeM7xA&bvm=bv.71778758,d.aWw

Eight days after he survived 23 bullet wounds for a new city record, Angel Alvarez walked up the sidewalk behind the courthouse with barely a limp.
He did have his right arm in a sling and there were bandages on his left forearm, as well as both legs, and there was some kind of surgical material on both feet.
But even in the black plastic clogs that replaced his bloodied shoes, he was having no trouble keeping pace with the three detectives escorting him from the black unmarked car parked at the corner.
Procedure would have mandated him being handcuffed behind his back. That was complicated by the sling, so the detectives had improvised by snapping one bracelet on his left wrist and the other to the waistband of his black shorts.
If he was in pain, there was no sign of it in his face or eyes. He also gave no indication that he felt fantastically fortunate to be alive. He walked as impassively as a guy out for a stroll in the noon hour.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...s-escort-court-article-1.206943#ixzz38uOCI2bj

I wasn't advocating that they go back to .45LC or that is was a magic man stopper. Just that it has the brawn to be effective. One thing I do know is that they won't be adopting a lead bullet or dum dum either. It will be round nosed for reliability, fully jacketed or even a PC greenie compliant non-lead iteration and fully Geneva compliant. And I think it will be a heavy lift to deviate from NATO too, but we are the most influential member so who knows? If they do change calibers it will likely be back to .45ACP, but it also won't surprise me if they adopt .40SW just as a ton of police departments and agencies are abandoning it. It wouldn't be the first bonehead move they did.

 

[Junior Bonner]

I wasn't advocating that they go back to .45LC or that is was a magic man stopper. Just that it has the brawn to be effective. One thing I do know is that they won't be adopting a lead bullet or dum dum either. It will be round nosed for reliability, fully jacketed or even a PC greenie compliant non-lead iteration and fully Geneva compliant. And I think it will be a heavy lift to deviate from NATO too, but we are the most influential member so who knows? If they do change calibers it will likely be back to .45ACP, but it also won't surprise me if they adopt .40SW just as a ton of police departments and agencies are abandoning it. It wouldn't be the first bonehead move they did.

How about those Gold Dots, though? Angel Alvarez sure doesn't like them.

 

[SoonerP226]

And I think it will be a heavy lift to deviate from NATO too, but we are the most influential member so who knows?

It wouldn't be the first time. We got them to standardize rifles on 7.62 NATO, then switched ours to 5.56...

 

[Junior Bonner]

I keep seeing physics pop up, and that projectiles can't knock things down. Even a sling shot can knock over a can.

Actual photo of a WWI French soldier being knocked down by rifle fire. The photo was taken from the German line. In the uncropped photo it actually shows the German line being breached. The full photo shows the German shooting him with a K98.

 

[SoonerP226]

I keep seeing physics pop up, and that projectiles can't knock things down. Even a sling shot can knock over a can.

There's a huge difference in mass between you and the can.

Any ballistic (i.e, not self-propelled) projectile carrying enough energy to knock a person off his feet starts with more than enough energy to knock the person firing the gun off his feet. It has to be that way, because the projectile begins losing energy the moment it leaves the muzzle. And every ft-lb of energy imparted into the projectile has to be imparted into the device from which it was fired (according to Newton's third law of motion--for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction), which is then transmitted, in the case of a man-portable firearm, into the body of the shooter.

Now, it is possible, in theory, to fire a projectile with enough energy to knock a person over without knocking over the shooter (f'rinstance, if you're braced and shooting something with a long impulse, like a BP rifle, and the projectile strikes an un-braced target with a short impulse, like hitting a trauma plate), but that stuff about flipping them backwards is one of two things: Hollyweird F/X or muscular reactions from the person being shot. Either way, it's not the energy (or momentum) of the bullet.

 

[OKCShooter]

I found it. In wikipedia. The Army ditched the .38 and went back to the Colt .45, a murderous double action revolver which fired the .45 Colt cartridge, non jacketed.

This is not the ACP. Despite what I have read about there not being such a thing as "knock down power," eye witness accounts state that the machete wielding attackers were "knocked off their feet" by this particular round.

I take it when it was stated "knocked off their feet" that it means DRT and "no longer standing"

In that case, a .22 to the brain bucket could easily knock men "off their feet"



I sure wouldn't want to face someone with a .45LC pointed at me - of course, why stop there?

Let's start issuing .500 Magnums.

 

[Junior Bonner]

There's a huge difference in mass between you and the can.

Any ballistic (i.e, not self-propelled) projectile carrying enough energy to knock a person off his feet starts with more than enough energy to knock the person firing the gun off his feet. It has to be that way, because the projectile begins losing energy the moment it leaves the muzzle. And every ft-lb of energy imparted into the projectile has to be imparted into the device from which it was fired (according to Newton's third law of motion--for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction), which is then transmitted, in the case of a man-portable firearm, into the body of the shooter.

Now, it is possible, in theory, to fire a projectile with enough energy to knock a person over without knocking over the shooter (f'rinstance, if you're braced and shooting something with a long impulse, like a BP rifle, and the projectile strikes an un-braced target with a short impulse, like hitting a trauma plate), but that stuff about flipping them backwards is one of two things: Hollyweird F/X or muscular reactions from the person being shot. Either way, it's not the energy (or momentum) of the bullet.

In the pic above, the Frenchman is knocked backward by a K98 fired from 20 feet. I am trying to find an uncropped image that shows the entire incident. The German who did this is pulling the bolt back on his Mauser and looking to the left, as another Frenchman gets to within ten feet of him.

 

[Junior Bonner]

I take it when it was stated "knocked off their feet" that it means DRT and "no longer standing"

In that case, a .22 to the brain bucket could easily knock men "off their feet"



I sure wouldn't want to face someone with a .45LC pointed at me - of course, why stop there?

Let's start issuing .500 Magnums.

I'm not thinking this stuff up. I read eye witness accounts.
https://api.viglink.com/api/click?f...ww.morolandhistory.com/Relat...20of%20.45.htm

 

[Junior Bonner]

Spanish Republican soldier being knocked down by Mauser fire from Franco Fascists forces in Spanish Civil War. I won't argue, I can't argue physics. But it looks like some munitions do in fact have knockdown power. This man is literally knocked off his feet.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Spanish Republican soldier being knocked down by Mauser fire from Franco Fascists forces in Spanish Civil War. I won't argue, I can't argue physics. But it looks like some munitions do in fact have knockdown power. This man is literally knocked off his feet.

Not trying to argue with you either, but a persons reaction to being shot and the actual energy imparted are two different things. I can stick you in the rear with a needle and you will come off of your feet. The energy of the needle didn't do it, but your reaction did.

For another example, look at all the videos of rounds being fired into ballistic gel. Those blocks weigh about 40 lbs, but the bullets do not send them flying off of the table. So why would a person who weighs 5 times as much be knocked off of his feet. Back in the 80's, Second Chance body armor had a guy who would demonstrate their lightweight vests by shooting himself in the chest with a .44 Magnum. He would demonstrate their heavy vests by standing on one foot while a guy shot him with a .308 FN-FAL. Never got knocked off his feet.

EDITED TO ADD:

Here is a link to the video of the guy shot with the FAL: