Legality of Hollow Points

[Stephen Cue]

Read the first sentence:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked

So is it the word WHO that is bothering you?

Ok, am I on punked? Are you just screwing with me cause I know you do that sometimes



I am thinking that you are saying that you are irked because its ONLY when you are attacked, can you use deadly force to neutralize the threat....right?

 

[LightningCrash]

So is it the word WHO that is bothering you?

Ok, am I on punked? Are you just screwing with me cause I know you do that sometimes

It doesn't bother me, I just wish they would expand the attack qualifier some.

If you want to break it up, they say who it applies to and what the law permits them to do:

Who:
Any person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be


This person:
has no duty to retreat
has the right to stand his or her ground
can meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of aforcible felony.

You are quick with the ninja edit

I am thinking that you are saying that you are irked because its ONLY when you are attacked, can you use deadly force to neutralize the threat....right?

Right. If I walk up on a linebacker wailing away on my wife, a rational person would still use deadly force. Unfortunately since I was not also attacked before using deadly force, I am not covered by the SDA's protections.
ETA: ^^^^ I should have said SYG's protections

 

[Stephen Cue]

It doesn't bother me, I just wish they would expand the attack qualifier some.

If you want to break it up, they say who it applies to and what the law permits them to do:

Who:
Any person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be


This person:
has no duty to retreat
has the right to stand his or her ground
can meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of aforcible felony.

You are quick with the ninja edit

Right. If I walk up on a linebacker wailing away on my wife, a rational person would still use deadly force. Unfortunately since I was not also attacked before using deadly force, I am not covered by the SDA's protections.

But you are covered by the SDA in the section D I quoted, and in another statute, I will get the correct one cause right now all Im remebering is 744??.

EDIT*** TITLE 21, Chapter 24, 733. I was close, LOL!

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69324

Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 24 - Homicide
Section 733 - Justifiable Homicide by Other Persons
Cite as: O.S. §, __ __


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in either of the following cases:

1. When resisting any attempt to murder such person, or to commit any felony upon him, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is; or,

2. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant, when there is a reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or,

3. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed; or in lawfully suppressing any riot; or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

master, mistress, or servant = Employee/Employer

You can protectect your spouse, employee, employer, mother, father, & children without the attack being on you personally.

Now that being said, I have had a few long conversations with James Wilson (head CLEET attorney and LEO academy instructor) about this very thing. There are other court rules that apply to juries when emcompassed with this. This is all on OSCN BTW, that explains that you can protect "others" whom are outside the category of having a relationship with them and meet force with force up to and including deadly.

Of course the stress is on being seriously cautious when doing so or you open yourself up to civil and or criminal charges.

I teach my students to call the police first and do not intervene unless; you 100% without a shadow of a doubt know that if you do not intervene, someone will suffer great bodily harm or death and when you do so, you must not exceed the level of force that a reasonable person would deem necessary.

Bottom line. You can protect your spouse or anyone on "the list" with deadly force when you yourself are not attacked presuming you do so to prevent great bodily harm or death.

You can also protect someone that you do not have a relationship with using deadly force ONLY when you doing so would prevent great bodily harm or death. "You step into the shoes of the victim" per se.

You CANNOT use deadly force unless there is a GBH/FOD and can only meet force with an equal level of force.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<AGAIN>>>>>>>ALWAYS CALL THE POLICE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Stephen Cue]

You are quick with the ninja edit

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

 

[twoguns?]

to prevent death or GREAT bodily harm ....This has to be the wording ..not severe...a lot of ...but GREAT. Ive read all the posts,and if My Wife is being attacked.......She is covered

 

[trickydick]

I just switched to HP's for my cc ammor after reading that in Texas they want everyone carrying to use "soft bullets" that won't overpenetrate and hurt those beyond the BG. My question is, is there any soft tipped bullets that aren't HP?

PS while ammo shopping at midway I ran across some ammo that was advertised as DRT (dead right there) claiming that they basicly blow apart after encountering a certain amount of liquid ie blood and what not, now the first thing in my mind is that DRT thing in a trial would sound very bad.

 

[Michael Brown]

I just switched to HP's for my cc ammor after reading that in Texas they want everyone carrying to use "soft bullets" that won't overpenetrate and hurt those beyond the BG. My question is, is there any soft tipped bullets that aren't HP?

PS while ammo shopping at midway I ran across some ammo that was advertised as DRT (dead right there) claiming that they basicly blow apart after encountering a certain amount of liquid ie blood and what not, now the first thing in my mind is that DRT thing in a trial would sound very bad.

http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91784

 

[LightningCrash]

Of course the stress is on being seriously cautious when doing so or you open yourself up to civil and or criminal charges.

I teach my students to call the police first and do not intervene unless; you 100% without a shadow of a doubt know that if you do not intervene, someone will suffer great bodily harm or death and when you do so, you must not exceed the level of force that a reasonable person would deem necessary.

Bottom line. You can protect your spouse or anyone on "the list" with deadly force when you yourself are not attacked presuming you do so to prevent great bodily harm or death.

You can also protect someone that you do not have a relationship with using deadly force ONLY when you doing so would prevent great bodily harm or death. "You step into the shoes of the victim" per se.

You CANNOT use deadly force unless there is a GBH/FOD and can only meet force with an equal level of force.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<AGAIN>>>>>>>ALWAYS CALL THE POLICE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I guess I didn't realize you weren't quoting SYG the first time around.

What I understand to be the two major things you get from the SYG:
The SYG act presumes that you held fear of GBH/FOD under its circumstances
If you have met the qualifiers, you are immune from criminal prosecution and civil action.

From what I understand, If I defend a member of my family under Title 21, Chapter 24 Section, 733, I have to reasonably demonstrate fear of GBH/FOD in court. If I meet the qualifiers of the SYG, this is already presumed on my behalf.

That's why I said what I did in post 18: "[...] you haven't met the qualifiers to be protected under the Stand Your Ground Law when you pull the trigger."
Not that you aren't legally OK in the long run... just that you don't get the lovey dovey kid gloves treatment of the SYG act

Is that correct?

Oklahoma doesn't have a lot of these crop up so I can't tell how grand juries would bill. I know in Texas I wouldn't be worried about it at all, it seems like they no-bill anything reasonable. That is, if the police even arrest the person to begin with. That pregnant woman shooting car thieves from her 2nd Story apartment balcony is a good example of that.

 

[Nightops]

I just switched to HP's for my cc ammor after reading that in Texas they want everyone carrying to use "soft bullets" that won't overpenetrate and hurt those beyond the BG. My question is, is there any soft tipped bullets that aren't HP?

Un-jacketed lead, Federal makes an expanding FMJ round, Hornady makes an FTX bullet that looks like a hollowpoint with an insert that fills the cavity. That is just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

 

[Fredkrueger100]

Massad Ayoub had a good discussion about this on self defense tv. He said if you ever do get onto a shooting and do have to go to court this is what you should say in regards to carrying hp's. "I use then because they are much less likely to penatrate through someone and hit innocent bystanders." Sounds like good advice. I am sure there are some places that would try and screw someone for using them but I don't ever see it happening here. It's just like I always tell people why I carry a firearm. I don't wan to use it. But I would rather have it and not use it than to not have it and need it. And, I am not wanting to kill someone even if they are trying to hurt me or a loved one, I am simply wanting to stop the threat. What ever it takes. To me that's another important thing to say if you were ever in court.