Selling AR-15 pistols with a stabilizing brace

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JEVapa

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So I have this question now.

What about these micro conversion kits that you can get for your glocks, m&p's, & others that you slide & lock your regular pistol into that basically temporarily converts your pistol into something like a carbine? They have an arm brace!

View attachment 345864
Are these going to be on the next list of things to be registered?
Is anyone who has one of these to play with going to be a felon?
If you have one of these, it turns what was a legal pistol into a braced pistol which they consider SBRs now.


There is no stopping them if you give an inch, even if you think you are getting the benefit of something for free, (free tax stamp for something) you are not helping the problem at stake, you are helping the problem.

Mass & total non-compliance is the was to fight this.
YES
 

JEVapa

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For all the Non-compliant folks; all the ones who have decided this is your hill; all the ones who have made the decision to tell the ATF to FO:
You are on a gun forum that serves the reddest state in the Union and is probably monitored by every FUDD possible. You should probably learn that and learn how to STFU or we'll probably see you on the news. I'm pretty sure you don't have the ass and the $$ to run up that hill and defend it on your own. Teddy Roosevelt gave some great advice. Right now you have big mouths and little twigs. Just saying.
This is especially true for the DUMASs that haven't and won't read the rule and just make up sh*t as they go along.
 

O4L

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If anyone can show where it states specifically in the new "rule" that an individual cannot buy or sell a pistol with a brace during the 120 day forbearance/amnesty period it would probably help clear up this question.

If it cannot be determined that a pistol with a brace can be bought or sold during this period, can it be determined that removing the brace alone makes a newly ruled "SBR" a pistol, no matter which buffer tube it has, and that it can be bought or sold?

If so then if one wishes to sell a braced pistol it would appear that removing the brace alone and then selling the pistol would be the way to go, but then can one sell that same brace seperatly according to the new "rule"?

Could this new "rule" be any more ambiguous? :anyone:
 

JEVapa

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If anyone can show where it states specifically in the new "rule" that an individual cannot buy or sell a pistol with a brace during the 120 day forbearance/amnesty period it would probably help clear up this question.
It does not at all. It also says that stabilizing braces are not illegal to own, but when on a Pistol, it now is an SBR.

Interestingly, it does bring up the original braces (you know the ones that WERE NOT STOCKS, BUT A STRAP or similar?) and that they are rescinding the original approval and you can resubmit for those if you want. They allude to an approval because those actually worked as a brace.
Could this new "rule" be any more ambiguous?
I had no issue understanding it. It is not written in legalese although some people want to say it is, therefore you must refer to a lawyer and a You Tube video vs reading the entire thing for oneself.

All this jibber jabber can be avoided though if people read the whole thing, but they still won't do it.
 

mightymouse

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If anyone can show where it states specifically in the new "rule" that an individual cannot buy or sell a pistol with a brace during the 120 day forbearance/amnesty period it would probably help clear up this question.

If it cannot be determined that a pistol with a brace can be bought or sold during this period, can it be determined that removing the brace alone makes a newly ruled "SBR" a pistol, no matter which buffer tube it has, and that it can be bought or sold?

If so then if one wishes to sell a braced pistol it would appear that removing the brace alone and then selling the pistol would be the way to go, but then can one sell that same brace seperatly according to the new "rule"?

Could this new "rule" be any more ambiguous? :anyone:
Don, first question: ATF final rule 2021R-08F does say that someone cannot buy or sell a braced pistol during the 120 day amnesty period. The rule also designates braced pistols as SBRs, but it is NFA laws which prohibit any transfer of an unregistered SBR. An AR-15 pistol with a brace is an SBR, they are as yet unregistered, and they cannot be transferred because they are unregistered. Please go to the link below and read section 9.1 and 9.2 in Chapter 9 of the NFA handbook. Section 9.2 is headlined in bold-faced print and reads, "Only previously registered firearms may be lawfully transferred".
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download

Second question: Removing the brace makes the SBR back into a pistol. Standard buffer tubes are allowed, as they are necessary to the function of the pistol. Such a pistol can be bought and sold with no problem. The buffer tubes that are prohibited are the adjustable type that mimic a brace (i.e., allowing the "pistol" to be shouldered), or overly long ones with foam pads that also mimic braces and allow shouldering of the weapon.

Third question: Braces are not illegal. Pistols with braces are. Remove the brace, sell the pistol, sell the brace. Keep the pistol, permanently dispose of the brace. Keep the brace, substitute a 16 inch or longer barrel for your short one and you have a legal rifle.

And, no, the rule is not overly ambiguous if I am able to understand it.
 
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O4L

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Don, first question: ATF final rule 2021R-08F does not say that someone cannot buy or sell a braced pistol during the 120 day amnesty period. The rule does designate braced pistols as SBRs, but it is NFA laws which prohibit any transfer of an unregistered SBR. An AR-15 pistol with a brace is an SBR, they are as yet unregistered, and they cannot be transferred because they are unregistered. Please go to the link below and read section 9.1 and 9.2 in Chapter 9 of the NFA handbook. Section 9.2 is headlined in bold-faced print and reads, "Only previously registered firearms may be lawfully transferred".
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download

Second question: Removing the brace makes the SBR back into a pistol. Standard buffer tubes are allowed, as they are necessary to the function of the pistol. Such a pistol can be bought and sold with no problem. The buffer tubes that are prohibited are the adjustable type that mimic a brace (i.e., allowing the "pistol" to be shouldered), or overly long ones with foam pads that also mimic braces and allow shouldering of the weapon.

Third question: Braces are not illegal. Pistols with braces are. Remove the brace, sell the pistol, sell the brace. Keep the pistol, permanently dispose of the brace. Keep the brace, substitute a 16 inch or longer barrel for your short one and you have a legal rifle. (I think I've gone over all this more than once....)

And, no, the rule is not overly ambiguous if I am able to understand it.
"The buffer tubes that are prohibited are the adjustable type that mimic a brace (i.e., allowing the "pistol" to be shouldered), or overly long ones with foam pads that also mimic braces and allow shouldering of the weapon."

I guess I don't know what two types of buffer tubes you are referring to here. Can you post examples?
 

sh00ter

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So I have this question now.

What about these micro conversion kits that you can get for your glocks, m&p's, & others that you slide & lock your regular pistol into that basically temporarily converts your pistol into something like a carbine? They have an arm brace!


Are these going to be on the next list of things to be registered?
Is anyone who has one of these to play with going to be a felon?
If you have one of these, it turns what was a legal pistol into a braced pistol which they consider SBRs now.

There is no stopping them if you give an inch, even if you think you are getting the benefit of something for free, (free tax stamp for something) you are not helping the problem at stake, you are helping the problem.

Mass & total non-compliance is the was to fight this.
They work with airsoft and BB guns, etc., so just like a brace, I do not see how the plastic item itself is an issue...if you wanted to use with a real gun you would need the 16" barrel as already mentioned. Similar example is if you owned a non-NFA AR rifle and chose to put a pistol brace on it instead of a stock...you can attach a piece of plastic to your airsoft gun, your rifle, etc. Just don't use it with a real upper shorter than 16" (I am not a legal expert, just giving my understanding of this issue based on all the info I've seen so far).
 

JEVapa

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I guess I don't know what two types of buffer tubes you are referring to here. Can you post examples?
So, remember 10+ years ago when pistol buffer tubes were a little shorter, but kind of round on the end and fat so as not to accept a stock? They were round and no notches or holes? Well, people (KAK) would drill spaced divots and you get their brace with a set screw and you could semi permanently adjust the LOP. Conversely, there are all the other ones that outright use a carbine extension or one of their own with the adjustable LOP. There are ones that are as long as a rifle extension that nugs are putting crutch tips on.

They are saying to go back the original pistol style buffer tube.
 

O4L

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So, remember 10+ years ago when pistol buffer tubes were a little shorter, but kind of round on the end and fat so as not to accept a stock? They were round and no notches or holes? Well, people (KAK) would drill spaced divots and you get their brace with a set screw and you could semi permanently adjust the LOP. Conversely, there are all the other ones that outright use a carbine extension or one of their own with the adjustable LOP. There are ones that are as long as a rifle extension that nugs are putting crutch tips on.

They are saying to go back the original pistol style buffer tube.
I've seen and understand all about those. It just sounded like something different was being described as an adjustable buffer tube

That being said...upstream it was stated that just removing the brace alone changed the SBR back to a pistol. Now it's being stated that the buffer tube needs to be the original short tubes with the rounded end to be okay.

Not ambiguous? Hmmm...

I really don't think most of this rule is crystal clear. Maybe I'm just dense.
 

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