Short barreled rifle legal specs? (not "class III")

[CAR-AR-M16]

I respectfully disagree. If the stock is folded the weapon is no longer designed to be fired from the shoulder which is the legal definition of a rifle. By your definition the second I pull my 10/22 out of its stock then I have an SBR in my hands because the length is under 26 even though it is not in its firing configuration.

 

[mr ed]

the above pictured gun is basically a t/c contender pistol with a folding stock
a "class 3" gun. it can be fired in that folded position.
if you go to the range shooting your 10/22 with no stock.
and it's less than 26" overall and the guy shooting next to you is an ATF agent, you will be going to jail if he wants to press the issue.

there is a reason for the law - you would be surprised how many banks,gas stations and liquor stores have been robbed with guns taken out of their stocks to make them shorter to conceal.

 

[BadKarma]

I think you are trying to apply logic to the law, not always possible to do. It's a lot like having an SBR upper and a lower that is not assembled as a complete rifle. By definition, per ATF, you have an SBR even if no attempt to assemble it has been made. 26 inches is the minimal legal overall for a rifle without the NFA designation of SBR. It cannot convert to anything less than 26 inches and still be legal without a stamp.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Well, I guess Kahr Arms is selling illegal SBR's then because their M1A1 Carbine (model AOM150)with folding stock is only 25.75" folded: http://www.auto-ordnance.com/dtlspec_aom130.html

 

[patrickcudd]

the above pictured gun is basically a t/c contender pistol with a folding stock
a "class 3" gun. it can be fired in that folded position.
if you go to the range shooting your 10/22 with no stock.
and it's less than 26" overall and the guy shooting next to you is an ATF agent, you will be going to jail if he wants to press the issue.

there is a reason for the law - you would be surprised how many banks,gas stations and liquor stores have been robbed with guns taken out of their stocks to make them shorter to conceal.

Sorry man, you are wrong. It is not an SBR, because the length is measured when unfolded. There are many manufacturers that are violating the law if you are correct. Kel-Tec included with Car-ar-m16's comment and every folding stock 16" barreled AK. All T/C stocks, this one included, has a warning about use with a barrel less than 16 inches.

ETA: What are you talking about with the "You'd be suprised" comment....that is spoken like a true ATF agent! I guess this rifle is more likely to be used in a crime than if the stock was removed and a pistol grip was used on a pistol receiver!
What is easier to conceal, a rifle w/out the stock (less than 26" overall) or a pistol.

ETAA: For you ATF guys.......Try looking through the scope if anyone thinks this is meant to be fired as a pistol!!!

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

A short barreled rifle is a rifle (which is defined as a shoulder
fired, rifled bore firearm) with a barrel length of less than 16",
or an overall length of less than 26", or any weapon made from a
rifle falling into the same length parameters (like a pistol made
from a rifle). In measuring barrel length you do it from the
closed breech to the muzzle, see 27 CFR sec. 179.11. To measure
overall length do so along, "the distance between the extreme ends
of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of
the bore." 27 CFR sec. 179.11. On a folding stock weapon you
measure with the stock extended, provided the stock is not readily
detachable, and the weapon is meant to be fired from the shoulder.

 

[patrickcudd]

the law is 16" barrel, 26" overall. if you have a folding stock, it is measured in it's shortest position (folded)

The gun "Patrickcudd" posted is a SBR and requires a tax stamp if from the end of the barrel to the hinge of the folding stock
is less than 26" and it certainly looks it.

On this statement, the law does not say anything specifically, except how it meant to be fired. Manufacturers are not going to produce anything illegal as a complete gun (not any major one anyhow)

 

[patrickcudd]

I think you are trying to apply logic to the law, not always possible to do. It's a lot like having an SBR upper and a lower that is not assembled as a complete rifle. By definition, per ATF, you have an SBR even if no attempt to assemble it has been made. 26 inches is the minimal legal overall for a rifle without the NFA designation of SBR. It cannot convert to anything less than 26 inches and still be legal without a stamp.

You are speaking of a term the ATF uses called constructive possession. That opinion (and it is opinion, not law) has been applied to machineguns in prosecution, but not to a short barreled rifle. They had an opinion that was released, but T/C successfully had it shot down by the Supreme Court.

 

[bulbboy]

Keep it civil

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

A short barreled rifle is a rifle (which is defined as a shoulder
fired, rifled bore firearm) with a barrel length of less than 16",
or an overall length of less than 26", or any weapon made from a
rifle falling into the same length parameters (like a pistol made
from a rifle). In measuring barrel length you do it from the
closed breech to the muzzle, see 27 CFR sec. 179.11. To measure
overall length do so along, "the distance between the extreme ends
of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of
the bore." 27 CFR sec. 179.11. On a folding stock weapon you
measure with the stock extended, provided the stock is not readily
detachable, and the weapon is meant to be fired from the shoulder.

For those who PM'd me for the source for what I posted above, it came from here: http://www.titleii.com/TitleII.com/bardwell/nfa_faqhtml.html#What_Is_An_NFA_Weapon