Short barreled rifle legal specs? (not "class III")

[bilboben]

If it is built and can be fired with one hand as pistol, it is not a class III or there are many Draco (AK pistol), SIG 556 pistol, and many other types, that are sold without a stamp. My Draco only has a 12" barrel and many times thought about putting a folding stock on it, but would require a stamp to do so.

 

[starpacker]

The firearm as made at the "factory", be it rifle or pistol, sets the requirments.
A pistol, having a shoulder stock attached, be it folded or not, must have a 16" barrel or falls into the SBR catagory. When ATF Stamped as a SBR, it will remain such and even removing the stock will NOT change it's classification by ATF.
A Rifle, having a shorter than 16" barrel requires an ATF stamp as a SBR. Again once classified, even changing the barrel to one of 16" or more, does NOT change the ATF classification.

Exsample: An AR style rifle, the serial numbered lower reciever is the actuall
SBR. You (the ATF stamped owner) can legally change uppers to a longer barrel without a problem. However should you wish to sell, trade the lower reciever even as just a lower or with a normal rifle upper on it. The ATF requires you to transfer it as a SBR.

Exsample 2: A KelTec PLR-16, 5.56 pistol has a 9.5 inch barrel. If a shoulder stock or even a vertical forarm grip is attached, it becomes a SBR and ATF stamp is required to remain legal.

 

[mr ed]

the law is 16" barrel, 26" overall. if you have a folding stock, it is measured in it's shortest position (folded)

The gun "Patrickcudd" posted is a SBR and requires a tax stamp if from the end of the barrel to the hinge of the folding stock
is less than 26" and it certainly looks it.

Sorry Guys!
I was unaware of the new way of measuring until I was shown an ATF opinion letter dated Jan 30th 2008.
That said because of a lawsuit by Choate and T/C. The official way was now "unfolded".
All I was going by was the ATF dealer and gunsmith seminars I had attended back in the 80's & 90's.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Sorry Guys!
I was unaware of the new way of measuring until I was shown an ATF opinion letter dated Jan 30th 2008.
That said because of a lawsuit by Choate and T/C. The official way was now "unfolded".
All I was going by was the ATF dealer and gunsmith seminars I had attended back in the 80's & 90's.

Is this the text of the letter you saw?


Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

The firearm as made at the "factory", be it rifle or pistol, sets the requirments.
A pistol, having a shoulder stock attached, be it folded or not, must have a 16" barrel or falls into the SBR catagory. When ATF Stamped as a SBR, it will remain such and even removing the stock will NOT change it's classification by ATF.
A Rifle, having a shorter than 16" barrel requires an ATF stamp as a SBR. Again once classified, even changing the barrel to one of 16" or more, does NOT change the ATF classification.

Exsample: An AR style rifle, the serial numbered lower reciever is the actuall
SBR. You (the ATF stamped owner) can legally change uppers to a longer barrel without a problem. However should you wish to sell, trade the lower reciever even as just a lower or with a normal rifle upper on it. The ATF requires you to transfer it as a SBR.

Exsample 2: A KelTec PLR-16, 5.56 pistol has a 9.5 inch barrel. If a shoulder stock or even a vertical forarm grip is attached, it becomes a SBR and ATF stamp is required to remain legal.

I must respectfully disagree slightly with your two examples:


In reference to "Example 1'' ATF considers an SBR to be an SBR based on it's characteristics. If one removes the short barrel and replaces it with a longer than 16" barrel, it is no longer an SBR. Many SBR owners routinely place long uppers on their SBR lowers so they can take them to shoots in non-SBR states. While the rifle will still be listed in the NFA Registry as an SBR, it is not legally an SBR if it has the longer barrel. If you wish to sell it as a regular title 1 gun you can send a letter to NFA Branch and notify them that the SBR has been permanently reconfigured with a +16" barrel and ask them to update the Registry to show this. No weapon ever gets removed from the Registry, they will simply update it to show that your weapon is no longer an SBR. Here is info from the ATF NFA Handbook to support my position: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter2.pdf

Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.
Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel. Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified firearm is not subject to the NFA.​

In reference to "Example 2'' I agree that attaching a shoulder stock to a pistol would classify the gun as an SBR, but the attachment of a vertical grip to a pistol would classify it as an AOW (Any Other Weapon). Here is a link to the ATF opinion letter on this: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm​

 

[mr ed]

Is this the text of the letter you saw?


Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

It was similar except it mentioned T/C, Choate and the Encore by name.
I think he downloaded it from a T/C forum.

 

[starpacker]

I must respectfully disagree slightly with your two examples:


In reference to "Example 1'' ATF considers an SBR to be an SBR based on it's characteristics. If one removes the short barrel and replaces it with a longer than 16" barrel, it is no longer an SBR. Many SBR owners routinely place long uppers on their SBR lowers so they can take them to shoots in non-SBR states. While the rifle will still be listed in the NFA Registry as an SBR, it is not legally an SBR if it has the longer barrel. If you wish to sell it as a regular title 1 gun you can send a letter to NFA Branch and notify them that the SBR has been permanently reconfigured with a +16" barrel and ask them to update the Registry to show this. No weapon ever gets removed from the Registry, they will simply update it to show that your weapon is no longer an SBR. Here is info from the ATF NFA Handbook to support my position: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter2.pdf

Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.
Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel. Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified firearm is not subject to the NFA.​

In reference to "Example 2'' I agree that attaching a shoulder stock to a pistol would classify the gun as an SBR, but the attachment of a vertical grip to a pistol would classify it as an AOW (Any Other Weapon). Here is a link to the ATF opinion letter on this: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm​

I stand corrected on the PLR / vertical grip as a SBR. But as AOW it still requires ATF stamp. Showes how "little" it takes to fall into required ATF approval.
Also on "declassifing" an SBR or AOW requires prior ATF approval before legal sale.
It takes very little to cause a weapon to fall into a "ATF required approval stamp"
Thanks for the clarafication

 

[Roadking Larry]

there is a reason for the law - you would be surprised how many banks,gas stations and liquor stores have been robbed with guns taken out of their stocks to make them shorter to conceal.

Mr ed- I must respectfully take exception to your stated position.
Using your logic it would be OK to outlaw handguns or any thing at all just because some one used it to commit a crime.
How about we punish actual crimes instead of what someone might do.

 

[WhiteyMacD]

Mr ed- I must respectfully take exception to your stated position.
Using your logic it would be OK to outlaw handguns or any thing at all just because some one used it to commit a crime.
How about we punish actual crimes instead of what someone might do.

Couldnt have said it better. Glad it wasnt just me it rubbed wrong.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

It was similar except it mentioned T/C, Choate and the Encore by name.
I think he downloaded it from a T/C forum.

If you could get a copy, would you please post it. TIA