It doesn't penetrate so much and you can't keep so many evil bullets in the magazine.
That's why they call it a .40 Short&Weak instead of 10mm.
Last edited:
It doesn't penetrate so much and you can't keep so many evil bullets in the magazine.
That's why they call it a .40 Short&Weak instead of 10mm.
sure beats a rock.
'bout time for that pic of the custom Hi Point to show up on here....lol
As far as the never-ending caliber debate goes, this makes for a good read: http://www.downrange.tv/blog/being-wrong-is-important-and-admitting-it-is-too-or-why-rob-pincus-prefers-the-9mm-over-the-40-for-defense/11563/
Being Wrong is Important… and, admitting it is too! – (Or: Why Rob Pincus prefers the 9mm over the .40 for personal defense)
Posted by Rob Pincus on Sep 14th, 2011 and filed under Rob Pincus.
While the 9mm vs. 40 debate probably gets too much attention, the underlying theme of this article probably doesn’t get enough. I look forward to comments and feedback!
I've been slowly but surely converting many of my .40s, including this Glock 22, over to 9mm.
So, why do I think the 9mm is a better choice for personal defense than the .40 S&W?
1. The Myth of the “One Shot Stop”, Part 1: Faster Strings of Fire are Better.
I don’t believe that it is likely to take only one shot to stop your next threat. With this in mind, the “data” that we collect (and sometimes obsess over) about the difference in potential terminal performance from one bullet to the next or the relatively few examples we have of single pistol hit results in human beings suggests to me that we should plan on multiple shot strings of fire. If we are planning on needing more than one shot and we know that we want to stop the bad guy as soon as possible, then it makes sense that we should seek the fastest string of fire possible. Physics dictates that the 9mm is going to be a more manageable round (lower recoil) than the .40 S&W out of any particular firearm. So, no matter how much you train and how much you practice, everyone should be able to shoot a string of Combat Accurate 9mm rounds faster than they can fire a string of .40. Of course, if you consider a 4×8 sheet of plywood your “combat accurate” area, you’re going to have to go to a relatively long string of fire to be able to measure a difference in time, but if you stick with a probable target size (high center chest) at a plausible distance (10-15’), it shouldn’t be hard to see a difference at a reasonable number of rounds (3-6).
2. The Myth of the “One Shot Stop”, Part 2: Higher Capacity is Better.
Again, keep in mind that we are counting on needing more than one round. In any given size package, 9mm firearms hold more rounds than their counterparts chambered in .40 S&W. This gives you a greater potential for defense against one or more targets for the same practical cost in size & weight.
9mm or .40 ?? Bet you can't tell. In a recent test, the PDX1 .40 and 9mm performed almost exactly the same in the gelatin.
3. Negligible Difference in Practical Wounding Potential.
Pistol bullets really aren’t great stoppers. There is a reason that hospital emergency rooms successfully treat Gun Shot Wound patients on a regular basis. Having talked to many EMTs and trauma doctors, and examined a significant amount of pictures/medical reports, there is a negligible difference between the wounding capacity of the 9mm and the .40 S&W. The idea of “energy transfer” is misplaced in regard to wounding potential because the net amount of energy contained in a pistol bullet is pretty low when we think about really having dramatic effect on a human body (knocking someone down, for example). The damage that is done is created through cutting and crushing. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few feet per second of speed or a millimeter (literally) of diameter are not worth giving up on the faster strings of fire or the higher capacity mentioned above. While the .40 S&W round, especially in heavier versions, has more potential for penetration of intermediate barriers, the data on actual personal defense shooting suggests overwhelmingly that there are not likely to be any hard barriers to be penetrated. (Law Enforcement Officers face barriers much more often, presenting a stronger argument for the .40 in the role of police duty gun). Tom Givens’ Lessons From the Street DVD is a great example of real world self defense shooting data of the type that should be influencing our choices.
There is also a large body of testing evidence that modern bonded hollow points in 9mm will penetrate an adequate amount of tissue to cause a maximum amount of damage inside a human body. In fact, manufacturers such as Winchester are now designing their defensive rounds to have consistent performance across the most common defensive calibers (9mm, 40, .45, .38). I recently participated in a ballistic gelatin demonstration of that company’s PDX1 line of ammunition and saw for myself that they are achieving this goal.
It is important to note that I am not arguing that a single .40S&W bullet doesn’t hold more potential to stop in any event, rather I believe that the small increase in potential is not worth the absolute known detriments in recoil and capacity. As I discussed in point number one, for all shooters, at some point, there will be a moment when they can fire one more round of 9mm in any given period of time. That extra round’s capacity to wound will far outweigh the miniscule difference in potential for any individual bullets.
4. Lower Cost, High Value Practice
It is significantly less expensive to shoot 9mm in training than it is to shoot .40… that means more reps and more training in general for any given budget. This is the last reason I’m going to offer here, but there is no doubt that it is a factor in favor of choosing the 9mm. This is not an argument for training with loads that aren’t what you actually carry just because of budget (training with a .22lr, for example), it is an argument for training with your actual carry caliber and carry gun as often and as realistically as is practical.
There you have it. Those are the four primary reasons that I now recommend 9mm as the personal defense round of choice, have been converting my own personal .40 S&W firearms over to 9mm and would never purchase a .40 S&W firearm for personal defense if I were starting all over today. I let anyone who asks me about defensive guns or bullets know how I feel today, despite years of recommending the .40 and talking about how it was a great compromise between the 9mm and .45. In the mid-90’s I was wrong about the advantages of that round and I have definitely changed my mind about the inadequacies of the 9mm. Acknowledging that I was wrong in the past, is the only way that I can share what I now believe is the best recommendation I can give.
-RJP
Being Wrong is Important… and, admitting it is too! – (Or: Why Rob Pincus prefers the 9mm over the .40 for personal defense)
Posted by Rob Pincus on Sep 14th, 2011 and filed under Rob Pincus.
While the 9mm vs. 40 debate probably gets too much attention, the underlying theme of this article probably doesn’t get enough. I look forward to comments and feedback!
I've been slowly but surely converting many of my .40s, including this Glock 22, over to 9mm.
So, why do I think the 9mm is a better choice for personal defense than the .40 S&W?
1. The Myth of the “One Shot Stop”, Part 1: Faster Strings of Fire are Better.
I don’t believe that it is likely to take only one shot to stop your next threat. With this in mind, the “data” that we collect (and sometimes obsess over) about the difference in potential terminal performance from one bullet to the next or the relatively few examples we have of single pistol hit results in human beings suggests to me that we should plan on multiple shot strings of fire. If we are planning on needing more than one shot and we know that we want to stop the bad guy as soon as possible, then it makes sense that we should seek the fastest string of fire possible. Physics dictates that the 9mm is going to be a more manageable round (lower recoil) than the .40 S&W out of any particular firearm. So, no matter how much you train and how much you practice, everyone should be able to shoot a string of Combat Accurate 9mm rounds faster than they can fire a string of .40. Of course, if you consider a 4×8 sheet of plywood your “combat accurate” area, you’re going to have to go to a relatively long string of fire to be able to measure a difference in time, but if you stick with a probable target size (high center chest) at a plausible distance (10-15’), it shouldn’t be hard to see a difference at a reasonable number of rounds (3-6).
2. The Myth of the “One Shot Stop”, Part 2: Higher Capacity is Better.
Again, keep in mind that we are counting on needing more than one round. In any given size package, 9mm firearms hold more rounds than their counterparts chambered in .40 S&W. This gives you a greater potential for defense against one or more targets for the same practical cost in size & weight.
9mm or .40 ?? Bet you can't tell. In a recent test, the PDX1 .40 and 9mm performed almost exactly the same in the gelatin.
3. Negligible Difference in Practical Wounding Potential.
Pistol bullets really aren’t great stoppers. There is a reason that hospital emergency rooms successfully treat Gun Shot Wound patients on a regular basis. Having talked to many EMTs and trauma doctors, and examined a significant amount of pictures/medical reports, there is a negligible difference between the wounding capacity of the 9mm and the .40 S&W. The idea of “energy transfer” is misplaced in regard to wounding potential because the net amount of energy contained in a pistol bullet is pretty low when we think about really having dramatic effect on a human body (knocking someone down, for example). The damage that is done is created through cutting and crushing. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few feet per second of speed or a millimeter (literally) of diameter are not worth giving up on the faster strings of fire or the higher capacity mentioned above. While the .40 S&W round, especially in heavier versions, has more potential for penetration of intermediate barriers, the data on actual personal defense shooting suggests overwhelmingly that there are not likely to be any hard barriers to be penetrated. (Law Enforcement Officers face barriers much more often, presenting a stronger argument for the .40 in the role of police duty gun). Tom Givens’ Lessons From the Street DVD is a great example of real world self defense shooting data of the type that should be influencing our choices.
There is also a large body of testing evidence that modern bonded hollow points in 9mm will penetrate an adequate amount of tissue to cause a maximum amount of damage inside a human body. In fact, manufacturers such as Winchester are now designing their defensive rounds to have consistent performance across the most common defensive calibers (9mm, 40, .45, .38). I recently participated in a ballistic gelatin demonstration of that company’s PDX1 line of ammunition and saw for myself that they are achieving this goal.
It is important to note that I am not arguing that a single .40S&W bullet doesn’t hold more potential to stop in any event, rather I believe that the small increase in potential is not worth the absolute known detriments in recoil and capacity. As I discussed in point number one, for all shooters, at some point, there will be a moment when they can fire one more round of 9mm in any given period of time. That extra round’s capacity to wound will far outweigh the miniscule difference in potential for any individual bullets.
4. Lower Cost, High Value Practice
It is significantly less expensive to shoot 9mm in training than it is to shoot .40… that means more reps and more training in general for any given budget. This is the last reason I’m going to offer here, but there is no doubt that it is a factor in favor of choosing the 9mm. This is not an argument for training with loads that aren’t what you actually carry just because of budget (training with a .22lr, for example), it is an argument for training with your actual carry caliber and carry gun as often and as realistically as is practical.
There you have it. Those are the four primary reasons that I now recommend 9mm as the personal defense round of choice, have been converting my own personal .40 S&W firearms over to 9mm and would never purchase a .40 S&W firearm for personal defense if I were starting all over today. I let anyone who asks me about defensive guns or bullets know how I feel today, despite years of recommending the .40 and talking about how it was a great compromise between the 9mm and .45. In the mid-90’s I was wrong about the advantages of that round and I have definitely changed my mind about the inadequacies of the 9mm. Acknowledging that I was wrong in the past, is the only way that I can share what I now believe is the best recommendation I can give.
-RJP
This is all I will post on the 9mm vs. .40 in this thread... don't want to hi-jack it.
I had read Rob's article before.. and disagreed with it in the comments section. A portion of a Glockworld article posted below points out that if a 9mm premium JHP expands to its maximum potential then there isn't much difference between it and a .40... but if a 9mm HP gets clogged or doesn't expand for some reason... then there is a heck of a lot of difference.
I'd bet that the ones who are so hot for the 9mm.. if you told them that in 5 minutes they were going to be in a life & death shootout with someone else who had a 9mm...that one of them was gonna die and one live..... and that they had their choice of using a 9mm or a .40... they would reach for the .40! I'm a big guy and controlling a .40's recoil & keeping it on target is very easy for me. A 9mm is like shooting a cap gun for me.. no recoil at all. 4-5" patterns with the .40 and 3-4" patterns with the 9mm rapid fired. In center mass shots on a bad buy.. there would be no major difference in the location of multiple bullet strikes.. but the .40 will give larger permanent wounds cavities... if the HP doesn't expand for some reason
----------------
GlockWorld.com
9mm vs. .40S&W
Is there a lot of difference between the 9mm and the .40S&W? If so, how much of a difference?
If you're talking about premium bullet design and both expand to their potential, there isn't a lot of difference. However, if both don't expand, there is a significant difference.
They are both medium powered, medium bore‑size handgun cartridges. Which one is better depends on what the evaluation criteria are.
"Price" is irrelevant when talking about caliber selection; relevant if comparing different gun manufacturers
"Stopping Power" is the ability of a bullet to cause a target to stop advancing and to bleed out as fast as possible? Again, if a 9mm Hydra-Shok 124 grain +P+ and a .40 Remington Golden Sabre 165 grain each achieve maximum expansion, you probably won't notice much of a difference. However, if a 9mm and a .40's hp get clogged, it is indisputable that the .40 will produce a larger permanent wound channel resulting in a quicker bleed out/incapacitation. Same goes for a .45 over a .40S&W.
I had read Rob's article before.. and disagreed with it in the comments section. A portion of a Glockworld article posted below points out that if a 9mm premium JHP expands to its maximum potential then there isn't much difference between it and a .40... but if a 9mm HP gets clogged or doesn't expand for some reason... then there is a heck of a lot of difference.
I'd bet that the ones who are so hot for the 9mm.. if you told them that in 5 minutes they were going to be in a life & death shootout with someone else who had a 9mm...that one of them was gonna die and one live..... and that they had their choice of using a 9mm or a .40... they would reach for the .40! I'm a big guy and controlling a .40's recoil & keeping it on target is very easy for me. A 9mm is like shooting a cap gun for me.. no recoil at all. 4-5" patterns with the .40 and 3-4" patterns with the 9mm rapid fired. In center mass shots on a bad buy.. there would be no major difference in the location of multiple bullet strikes.. but the .40 will give larger permanent wounds cavities... if the HP doesn't expand for some reason
----------------
GlockWorld.com
9mm vs. .40S&W
Is there a lot of difference between the 9mm and the .40S&W? If so, how much of a difference?
If you're talking about premium bullet design and both expand to their potential, there isn't a lot of difference. However, if both don't expand, there is a significant difference.
They are both medium powered, medium bore‑size handgun cartridges. Which one is better depends on what the evaluation criteria are.
"Price" is irrelevant when talking about caliber selection; relevant if comparing different gun manufacturers
"Stopping Power" is the ability of a bullet to cause a target to stop advancing and to bleed out as fast as possible? Again, if a 9mm Hydra-Shok 124 grain +P+ and a .40 Remington Golden Sabre 165 grain each achieve maximum expansion, you probably won't notice much of a difference. However, if a 9mm and a .40's hp get clogged, it is indisputable that the .40 will produce a larger permanent wound channel resulting in a quicker bleed out/incapacitation. Same goes for a .45 over a .40S&W.
that is why i put safety on then take it off to fire. and i am starting to practice shot uspsa last 2 months (you have to draw with safety on ) and shot steel chalenge this month ( again have to draw with safety on) BY the way just cuz you can stand still at the range take your time and shoot one hole for 8 shots at 30' doesnt mean crap when your start drawing, running engaging multiple targets ,and changing mags (VERY humbling experience)
Epic fail.
