Ron Paul!

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dutchwrangler

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We both agree that the intent of the Constitution is to limit the power of the central government. However, we tend to disagree on just where the limits are. You advocate that the lines "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" refer only to the enumerated powers that follow them while I advocate that those lines contain enumerated powers as well. You keep coming back to whole sovereignty issue but the fact still remains that the founding fathers knew that the articles gave too much power to the states and not enough to the central government. The entire reason the Constitution was created was to strengthen the position of the "common" government in relation to the states. This being the case, it cannot be argued that the founding fathers intended for separate states with unlimited sovereignty.

I do agree that the federal government is WAY out of it's intended bounds, you and I just tend to disagree a little on the precise location of the boundaries.

Power. Who has it?

Let's look at the Founding Document, the Declaration of Independence. In it the Signers point out that in self-evident truth, "that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That so secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed..."

This document explicitly points out that the Power comes from the governed... the people. To imply that the Articles gave any power to the States is a wrong assumption. The Articles, like our current Bill of Rights, give nothing to the people. The Articles as well as the current Constitution LIMIT the central government. They can not give what they do not own. The people own the power. Only the people can give power as it is the people who possess the power.

I keep coming back to the sovereignty issue because it is the foundation of the individual being a free man or woman. We each own ourselves. We own our bodies, our intelligence, our creative thinking and our dreams. These things make man... man.

As men gather in groups, society takes shape. The concept of giving up some individual freedoms for the sake of group harmony comes about. Councils are formed by the concent of those involved to resolve disputes that will arise. Those powers of the council are limited to only resolving disputes. Those councils have no moral standing to exceed the power vested to them by the group.

Groups merge and form colonies and then the States. At each point, the individuals that comprise each colony and then State vest a limited amount of power to those selected by the people to deal with disputes.

States evolve to the point that they see the benefits of mutual cooperation. They come together under the instruction of those who sent (the collective of individual, sovereign human beings) to resolve disputes between the different States that will arise as they work together for mutual benefit.

The Articles came short simply because the States were jealous of their own power and weren't eager to relinguish it. Thus the lack of providing a means of gathering support. Each state, it was intended, would send what money it felt it wanted to provide funding. Virginia was about the only State to do this consistently. Others States didn't do it at all. After eight years the lack of funding had effectively neutered the central government impotent.

Plan B... new convention to fix the Articles. By this time, those who advocated the break with Britain originally had become complacent in the guardianship over the new central government and were replaced by those who held a more nationalistic viewpoint. Hamilton, Washington and Franklin come to mind. Anyways, with the original old school advocates not in the picture a new idea comes up... Plan C.

Plan C... new constitution. Scrap the Articles, start out with something more bold which we'll call the Constitution.

Debate the issues. Anti-Federalist Papers. Federalist Papers. State assemblies debating whether to ratify or not. Some will decide to ratify as is. Others demand a Bill of Rights. Eventually the Constitution is ratified and becomes the rule book of the central government.

So yes, we can agree that the Constitution was created to give the central government more bite than the Articles provided. At question then is the extent of power that the central government was given. Article 1, Section 8 lists those powers granted to them by the People via the States.

The Taxing Clause provided the means by which this body could fund itself to take care of those concerns listed by Article 1, Section 8. The ability to tax for anything outside of those enumerated powers is in violation of Article 1, Section 8. The ability to SPEND for anything outside of those enumerated powers is in violation of Article 1, Section 8.

The Constitution is the rule book for the referee. A referee can not just make calls on what he believes the interpretation to be. Those interpretations were made by those who created the rule book. In this scenario... the Sovereign States.

On this we disagree. You're philosophy seems to advocate that the parents (the States) must be subservient to the child (the central goverment). Broken down further, are the people of Oklahoma subservient to those we elected to represent us on 23rd & Lincoln? In both cases this would be illogical. If it's illogical, then it can not be.

Each of us is sovereign. This is the foundation of a free society. Upon this foundation we build and fabricate the system of government we feel best suits our society.

You have to come back to the first question: What is the purpose of government? Answer: "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governered..."

If you and I are sovereign, it is immoral for those in power to attempt to enslave us. I own my own body. It is my property.

Each American that advocates that government takes from one citizen to help out another citizen, regardless of how well the intention, is guilty of the immoral act of theft. The money you earn is your property. It provides you with Life and the means of surviving. It provides you with the means of keeping your Liberty (buying guns and ammo for instance). And it provides a means of Pursuing Happiness (dictated by each individuals concept of happiness). Each American that seeks to see the power of government expanded beyond those powers enumerated in the Constitution are guilty seeking to empower a government capable of enslaving others, be it economic slavery or physical slavery.

It is for this reason that I often decline involving myself in debates with Americans who don't understand, who have never read or studied or who don't own a copy of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Who have never studied the words of those who Drafted and Ratified the Constitution. It would be a pointless endeavor on my part.

In the end, there is only one thing that matters to me... to be free. Unfortunately, far too many of my fellow citizens have no issue with government enslaving me with it's never ending march of taxes, rules, mandates and regulations. Sadly, most don't realize that they're not only reducing my freedoms... but reducing theirs and their childrens. As Bastiat points out, "The mission of law is not to oppress persons and plunder them of their property, even thought the law may be acting in a philanthropic spirit. It's mission is to protect property."

Until all citizens understand this, the loss of Liberty will continue until one day it's completely gone.
 

WTJ

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I say this with absolute respect for Dutch Wrangler. You certainly seem to be well versed in the 'theoretical' US Government. The above passage is impressively written.

Break

Ya know, it is sad, that someone who voluntary and legally immigrated to this country has to continue to explain our intended system of government to natural-borncitizens, most of whom were educated by aforementioned government. I suppose that makes the Department of Education as effective as the Treasury, Justice, and State Departments. Thank God DoD has, to this point, kept the external Commies at bay.

This is why we have the Fecal Sandwich government we have today. The Prussian School Model has worked as advertised.

This PSA was brought to you by the color Red, and the Cyrillic Alphabet.
 

dutchwrangler

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I say this with absolute respect for Dutch Wrangler. You certainly seem to be well versed in the 'theoretical' US Government. The above passage is impressively written.

Break

Ya know, it is sad, that someone who voluntary and legally immigrated to this country has to continue to explain our intended system of government to natural-borncitizens, most of whom were educated by aforementioned government. I suppose that makes the Department of Education as effective as the Treasury, Justice, and State Departments. Thank God DoD has, to this point, kept the external Commies at bay.

This is why we have the Fecal Sandwich government we have today. The Prussian School Model has worked as advertised.

This PSA was brought to you by the color Red, and the Cyrillic Alphabet.


Thank you for the kind words. Understanding is only a book away. Sometimes it takes a ton of reading to find the truth but it can be found if one seeks it. Plus, my job provides me a lot of time to think. :)
 

soonerwings

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On this we disagree. You're philosophy seems to advocate that the parents (the States) must be subservient to the child (the central goverment). Broken down further, are the people of Oklahoma subservient to those we elected to represent us on 23rd & Lincoln? In both cases this would be illogical. If it's illogical, then it can not be.

Not once did I say that the states must be subservient to the central government. What I said was that the central government was intentionally given more power under the constitution than under the articles. You say that the general welfare clause is contained in the other enumerated powers in Article 1 Section 8 while I say that to provide for the general welfare of the United States IS an enumerated power.

Each American that advocates that government takes from one citizen to help out another citizen, regardless of how well the intention, is guilty of the immoral act of theft. The money you earn is your property.

On this we agree. The Constitution provides for congress to spend for the general welfare, but NOT to spend in order to benefit one person or group more than another. Again, see the definition of "public good".

It is for this reason that I often decline involving myself in debates with Americans who don't understand, who have never read or studied or who don't own a copy of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Who have never studied the words of those who Drafted and Ratified the Constitution. It would be a pointless endeavor on my part.

I'll take this as a compliment. You've spent a great many words debating me.

Until all citizens understand this, the loss of Liberty will continue until one day it's completely gone.

I'm afraid this day is much closer than most people think. Still, I REFUSE to give up.
 

WTJ

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Sooner Wings, you can be Alexander Hamilton or John Adams

Dutch Wrangler, you can be Thomas Jefferson or James Madison.

I will probably wind up being Daniel Shays. LOL.:igetit:

J/K.
 

dutchwrangler

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@ Soonerwings... you've been a great debater. You are aware of the Constitution and as such understand it's premise. That we have a slight disagreement on philosophy is fine and all is well.

As for "General welfare", that's another subject of debate. Some believe it means the general welfare of the populace as a whole. I attribute it as speaking to establishing harmonious relations between the States (as the Constitution is a set of rules for the central government to deal with on those issues that concern the States). The generic concept of "general welfare", if applied to the people as individuals is a task reserved to the States as per the 10th Amendment. Original intent of course is the key to understanding this term. Understanding of the language used in the eighteenth century prompted me to purchase Samuel Johnson's 1755 Dictionary in order to understand their meaning as use in that era. I also downloaded a PDF version that is available.

I can't say I've given up entirely. I simply don't get to involved with those who aren't working off the same page. Since my time is finite my effort in debate is as well. When someone views government as the place to go for solutions then it's an uphill battle to convince them otherwise. Sadly most Americans have taken the position that all answers can be found in D.C. Such as it is, I'm less inclined to view the government of Oklahoma as threatening to my individual freedoms whereas the central government is a real threat. In the end though, if I no longer am willing to tolerate the abuse of Uncle Sugar I'll sell my guns and return to Canada where the central government is less powerful and threatening. This of course would require living snowbound for six months of the years, something I'm adverse to contemplating. :)

@ WTJ... I admire Jefferson immensely. Classical Liberal all the way!
 

WTJ

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OK. Question: Is Ron Paul a Classic Liberal (read Anti-Federalist) or a Neo Libertarian? We know that the Left has misappropriated terminology a la 1984 in order to rid themselves of the stain of failure that has inevitably become attached to their many names. Socialist morphed into Progressive, Communist became a 'Liberal' in Newspeak, and all because their ideology is destined to fail.

What category fits Senator Paul?
 

dutchwrangler

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OK. Question: Is Ron Paul a Classic Liberal (read Anti-Federalist) or a Neo Libertarian? We know that the Left has misappropriated terminology a la 1984 in order to rid themselves of the stain of failure that has inevitably become attached to their many names. Socialist morphed into Progressive, Communist became a 'Liberal' in Newspeak, and all because their ideology is destined to fail.

What category fits Senator Paul?

His speech indicates that he aligns himself with Classic Liberalism along the lines of Jefferson. Neo-Libertarians are Statist Republicans supporting aggressive foreign policy and military domination for the most part with a more casual attitude on social behavior (Neil Boortz is an example).
 

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