Expanded Background Checks

Profreedomokie

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Make no mistake, this is ONLY about setting up a process which can be later used for registration of guns and gun owners.

What is needed are not more background check laws, but enforcement of existing laws. If bad guys are illegally trying to purchase a firearm, they need to be punished. The lawmakerspushing H.R. 8 do not want to do that. They are not serious about stopping bad people from getting guns, they only care about gutting the Second Amendment.

Items not mentioned by most critics of H.R. 8 are:

1- There is no exception for Curio & Relic FFL holders as being exempt-only transfers to dealers, manufacturers and importers, and specifically defined close family members. This will end the ability of C&R FFL collectors to get items shipped direct, or purchase C&R handguns out of state, or ship direct to another C&R FFL holder. There are NO exceptions for C&R collectible guns, most of which are 50-120 years old.

2- The requirement for buyer and seller to be in front of an FFL dealer while they do the background check is a potential Trojan Horse to END ALL GUN SHOWS. If BATF writes the implementing rules to require them to be done at the FFL’s “place of business” it will end any transfers at a gun show, except from a dealer’s inventory to a person passing a check at the show. No “private sales” can be completed unless the ATF rules are written to allow a dealer to do that at a show. This threat to the existence of gun shows must not be underestimated. Remember, gun shows are the meeting place and rallying point for gun rights activists. Ending gun shows “would be a feature, not a bug” if they can write the rules cleverly.

3- H.R.8 allows charging a fee for a dealer to handle a transfer- but amount is unlimited. Transfer fees typically run $20-100 but mostly around $30-40 per gun. Although charged by the dealer, it is a de facto “2nd Amendment poll tax.” FIX; Mandate that all police stations be required to process background checks at no cost. Police stations are all over, gun shops may be many miles away.

4- H.R.8 specifically prohibits establishment of a national gun registry. But, it establishes the de facto process to gather the data which will reside in the dealer’s bound books forever. When a dealer goes out of business, their records are sent to ATF. Scanning and OCR technology can convert all dealer records they have, or care to photocopy during dealer inspections, into digital databases in short order. That may not occur right away, but only a fool thinks the gun grabbers will not push for a national gun registry as the next step when their plans fail to stop criminals and crazy people. A one line amendment in a “must pass” appropriations bill could repeal the prohibition on a gun registry.

5- The bill has a known built-in loophole that can only be closed by mandating universal gun registration. A loophole the anti-gunners will demand be fixed as soon as the bill becomes law. As proposed, there is no way for the government to enforce the law, as there is no way to know whether or not a person who purchased a gun from a private individual actually had a background check performed. When confronted by law enforcement, an individual could tell which dealer performed the check and hope that that dealer properly kept records. But a person who violated the law could simply refuse to answer any questions, and other than searching every paper record of every dealer in the country, there is no way law enforcement could determine whether or not the check was performed. The only way to prevent this is to mandate universal gun registration. The anti-gunners would love to implement such a requirement today, but they know it is not politically viable. They are choosing instead to get half today and the rest tomorrow.

6- Many dealers will not handle private transfers–Walmart ended all gun sales in New Mexico because they did not want strangers bringing guns into their stores, and the potential hassles or risks for failed checks. If no one is available to handle transfers, no guns can be transferred.
 

Glocktogo

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Stolen from another forum so don’t credit me but I agree completely:

So purely amongst ourselves, here's the deal I'd push for if we had REASONABLE people who can act like HUMAN ****ING BEINGS rather than a troop of baboons on the other side of the table...

UBC's:
  • 4473 greatly simplified. Name, address, DL #, optional space for SSN/UPIN. No firearm data collected.
  • No waiting periods except in Delay or appealing Deny--iron goes home as soon immediately upon a Proceed.
  • 1-800 number or mobile app where anyone can call in a check; alternately go with IIRC Steyr's Livescan-based BGC idea.

Red Flags:
  • Most all restrictions above
  • False red-flag filers REQUIRED to be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law, ZERO prosecutorial discretion.

In return for all of these:
  • Sporting Purposes clause repealed.
  • MG Registry reopened.
  • SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Tittle II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
  • Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
  • Most of all: NATIONWIDE CARRY or No Deal.

If you wanna add more for our side of the ledger feel free, this is just my personal bare minimum "I get this or you can go take a fat one up the ass and die of AIDS" position as of this moment... gimme five minutes and I'll probably have more Non-Negotiables.

I think a key here is to make a serious offer of “bi-partisan” legislation, knowing full well the left will never accept it. They have no intentions of compromising because they have an ulterior agenda. So we do this and when they refuse, we get to say they want to undermine the 2nd and 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments more than they want to solve this issue.

We have to put them on the defensive or we’re going to lose. Now is the time to do it because they’re here in Oklahoma for a couple more weeks. Call, write and email their offices NOW. I fully believe Langford will cave and vote for anti-gun legislation this time. I fully believe one or several of our representatives would too if H.R. 8 doesn’t pass the Senate and they have to do a “compromise” bill.

I’ve never been more concerned than I am right now. This is our 1994 right here, right now. :(
 

PJM

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Any red flag law needs to have VERY severe penalties for anyone making a knowingly false allegation. Otherwise I can see gun grabbers calling 911 to claim their gun-owning neighbor is a terrorist threat.
Yeah like an automatic 5 years in federal prison and a permanent felony conviction on your record, like the perp tried to do to another American without cause.
 

Okie4570

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Make no mistake, this is ONLY about setting up a process which can be later used for registration of guns and gun owners.

What is needed are not more background check laws, but enforcement of existing laws. If bad guys are illegally trying to purchase a firearm, they need to be punished. The lawmakerspushing H.R. 8 do not want to do that. They are not serious about stopping bad people from getting guns, they only care about gutting the Second Amendment.

Items not mentioned by most critics of H.R. 8 are:

1- There is no exception for Curio & Relic FFL holders as being exempt-only transfers to dealers, manufacturers and importers, and specifically defined close family members. This will end the ability of C&R FFL collectors to get items shipped direct, or purchase C&R handguns out of state, or ship direct to another C&R FFL holder. There are NO exceptions for C&R collectible guns, most of which are 50-120 years old.

2- The requirement for buyer and seller to be in front of an FFL dealer while they do the background check is a potential Trojan Horse to END ALL GUN SHOWS. If BATF writes the implementing rules to require them to be done at the FFL’s “place of business” it will end any transfers at a gun show, except from a dealer’s inventory to a person passing a check at the show. No “private sales” can be completed unless the ATF rules are written to allow a dealer to do that at a show. This threat to the existence of gun shows must not be underestimated. Remember, gun shows are the meeting place and rallying point for gun rights activists. Ending gun shows “would be a feature, not a bug” if they can write the rules cleverly.

3- H.R.8 allows charging a fee for a dealer to handle a transfer- but amount is unlimited. Transfer fees typically run $20-100 but mostly around $30-40 per gun. Although charged by the dealer, it is a de facto “2nd Amendment poll tax.” FIX; Mandate that all police stations be required to process background checks at no cost. Police stations are all over, gun shops may be many miles away.

4- H.R.8 specifically prohibits establishment of a national gun registry. But, it establishes the de facto process to gather the data which will reside in the dealer’s bound books forever. When a dealer goes out of business, their records are sent to ATF. Scanning and OCR technology can convert all dealer records they have, or care to photocopy during dealer inspections, into digital databases in short order. That may not occur right away, but only a fool thinks the gun grabbers will not push for a national gun registry as the next step when their plans fail to stop criminals and crazy people. A one line amendment in a “must pass” appropriations bill could repeal the prohibition on a gun registry.

5- The bill has a known built-in loophole that can only be closed by mandating universal gun registration. A loophole the anti-gunners will demand be fixed as soon as the bill becomes law. As proposed, there is no way for the government to enforce the law, as there is no way to know whether or not a person who purchased a gun from a private individual actually had a background check performed. When confronted by law enforcement, an individual could tell which dealer performed the check and hope that that dealer properly kept records. But a person who violated the law could simply refuse to answer any questions, and other than searching every paper record of every dealer in the country, there is no way law enforcement could determine whether or not the check was performed. The only way to prevent this is to mandate universal gun registration. The anti-gunners would love to implement such a requirement today, but they know it is not politically viable. They are choosing instead to get half today and the rest tomorrow.

6- Many dealers will not handle private transfers–Walmart ended all gun sales in New Mexico because they did not want strangers bringing guns into their stores, and the potential hassles or risks for failed checks. If no one is available to handle transfers, no guns can be transferred.


Don't the Feds already know who the legal gun owners are and their gun(s)?
 

gerhard1

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I've said it before and I'll say it again: when a private sale between strangers happens, the gun disappears from the system. UBC's have relatively little to do with keeping guns out of criminal hands. It has everything to do with keeping the guns from disappearing from the federal radar. What the objective is is to enable the feds to keep records of all sales.

And, like the OP said, the only effective way to enforce the UBC is with universal registration. That is their real objective.
 

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