It Will Never Happen Here

[Werewolf]

Being a member of a particular group doesn't mean that they will disobey orders when their means of putting food on the table may be on the line.

Maybe...
But that particular sentiment is the primary reason that Oath Keepers came into being.

Would LEO's choose enmasse to disobey orders to disarm the public? I have no clue. It'd be a darn tough choice for them as individuals.

In the military new boots all the way up to the commanding general/admiral of a service are taught that there is no duty to obey an unlawful order. We were also taught that if you choose to disobey an order, whether lawful or not, that you will almost with certainty be court martialed. One had better be darn sure the disobeyed order was unlawful.

LEO's are in a very similar situation.

It will take men of great courage and high moral fiber to stand up and say no.

 

[vvvvvvv]

It will take men of great courage and high moral fiber to stand up and say no.

And being a member of a particular non-immediate group has no (or at the most, an extremely insignificant) impact on whether or not an individual will make a decision that is distinct and different from their immediate group.

 

[Glocktogo]

And being a member of a particular non-immediate group has no (or at the most, an extremely insignificant) impact on whether or not an individual will make a decision that is distinct and different from their immediate group.

Actually, their character will play the most important role in their immediate decision. Most of those signing up for Oath Keepers have decided beforehand that they're going to disobey an unlawful order. They're more likely to follow that decision than some teenager signing an abstinence pledge, particularly if they're older. Many have discussed things like this beforehand with their fellow soldiers & LEO's. If it's been discussed and several agree, they're even more likely to follow through. Not all will, but hopefully enough to stall the effort.

In the military, you're going to get court martialed. In law enforcement, you're going to get fired, just like the BATFE whistleblower did. You just have to accept that and hope it all works out in the end. Either way, it's not a decision that's lightly made.

In my office, we've made it clear to management in advance that we're VERY attuned to the COTUS, and that we will not violate our oath. Most of us have a pocket Constitution laying on our desks for everyone to see, along with our "God Bless Our Troops, Especially Our Snipers" bumper stickers. Both courtesy of Larue Tactical!

 

[vvvvvvv]

Actually, their character will play the most important role in their immediate decision. Most of those signing up for Oath Keepers have decided beforehand that they're going to disobey an unlawful order.

Character is of the individual, not of the group. The post that I originally responded to seemed to imply that those who are not members of Oath Keepers are somehow of lesser character.

 

[sanjuro893]

Anybody remember the bumper stickers from the 80's that ended with "...from my cold, dead hands!" ?

....... many of us still mean it.

 

[Werewolf]

Character is of the individual, not of the group. The post that I originally responded to seemed to imply that those who are not members of Oath Keepers are somehow of lesser character.

Partially true. Character is an individual characteristic. However, man is a social animal and more often than not the group dynamic overrides the individual.

Think lynch mobs, the influence of the media on group think, how the democrats use class warfare. Ever wonder why an otherwise rational man would charge a machine gun nest (and being ordered to is only a very small part of the why).

Think peer pressure in schools.

Think a typical workplace with 30 or 40 employees in a department. As individuals most are qualified, competent and responsible adults. As a group they invariably have the same group dynamic as children in a family. They all compete for the Boss' attention just as children do with Mom/Dad. They whine and pout about the same things children do and respond favorably to the same type of positive attention that children do. Yet when they're outside the group they revert right back to being competent and responsible adults.

Never, ever underestimate the power of the group to influence it's member's behavior.

Hell - the power of the group can even be seen here on OSA if one reflects on it a bit.

It's all about group dynamics, my friend, all about group dynamics.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Partially true. Character is an individual characteristic. However, man is a social animal and more often than not the group dynamic overrides the individual.

Think lynch mobs, the influence of the media on group think, how the democrats use class warfare. Ever wonder why an otherwise rational man would charge a machine gun nest (and being ordered to is only a very small part of the why).

Think peer pressure in schools.

Think a typical workplace with 30 or 40 employees in a department. As individuals most are qualified, competent and responsible adults. As a group they invariably have the same group dynamic as children in a family. They all compete for the Boss' attention just as children do with Mom/Dad. They whine and pout about the same things children do and respond favorably to the same type of positive attention that children do. Yet when they're outside the group they revert right back to being competent and responsible adults.

Never, ever underestimate the power of the group to influence it's member's behavior.

Hell - the power of the group can even be seen here on OSA if one reflects on it a bit.

It's all about group dynamics, my friend, all about group dynamics.

And being a member of a particular non-immediate group has no (or at the most, an extremely insignificant) impact on whether or not an individual will make a decision that is distinct and different from their immediate group.

Oath Keepers is a non-immediate group. Therefore, the social influence is relatively insignificant compared to the influence of the other officers/soldiers which are immediate to the individual.