Kansas Happening

[gerhard1]

The thread on the False bradishing report brings to mind an incident in Kansas recently. On the Kansas CCW forum there was a thread where one of the members was almost ran into.

I am a fairly good writer, but I would be hard put to paraphrase the events, so I decided to do a C&P.
Here is the story in the guys own words:

OK, here's the deal. Never had to do this before so I'm still a little rattled.
Driving home from work today I'm in traffic and there is this jerk in an older model Camry driving like a complete a-hole. Cutting in and out of traffic, not signaling, tail gating, etc... a real danger.
Anyway, this guy cuts in front of me so close I think he hits me, have to stomp on the brakes, everything inside the van flies...
So I'm going again and I see this guy turn into my turn. So I'm right behind him and see him turn into his cul-de-sac.
I turn in after him and roll down my passenger side window when I see him get out to check the community mail-box.
Shouldn't have, but I stop and say to him that 'he shouldn't drive like that, you almost hit me', attitude is rolling off this guy and he says 'then stay out of the fast lane *****!'.
So I reply 'hey, you about hit me.' and he replies 'so, you want to do something about it?' and gets out of his car.
Before I can reply he tries to open the passenger side door, it's locked, but the window is down. So he reaches in and unlocks it and opens the passenger side door and starts to get in. So... I pull my CC pistol and point it straight at him. He jumps back and slams the door and runs to the back of his car and starts to get something out of the trunk.
I realize this has gone too far and reverse out of there ASAP. He starts throwing things at me from his trunk (bluffing on anything being in there I guess).

This was his report of the incident and was followed by one of the longer threads on the Kansas forum, including input from both two lawyers, and yours truly.
Bottom line for the members of the forum was that he acted imprudently some saying that he provoked the other guy's actions, with others saying that he did not. The general consensus was that even if legal, what he did was not wise. And I would agree with this.
BTW mods, if you think that the C&P that I did here is not kosher, please feel free to delete the post.

 

[Soulman]

The thread on the False bradishing report brings to mind an incident in Kansas recently. On the Kansas CCW forum there was a thread where one of the members was almost ran into.

I am a fairly good writer, but I would be hard put to paraphrase the events, so I decided to do a C&P.
Here is the story in the guys own words:

OK, here's the deal. Never had to do this before so I'm still a little rattled.
Driving home from work today I'm in traffic and there is this jerk in an older model Camry driving like a complete a-hole. Cutting in and out of traffic, not signaling, tail gating, etc... a real danger.
Anyway, this guy cuts in front of me so close I think he hits me, have to stomp on the brakes, everything inside the van flies...
So I'm going again and I see this guy turn into my turn. So I'm right behind him and see him turn into his cul-de-sac.
I turn in after him and roll down my passenger side window when I see him get out to check the community mail-box.
Shouldn't have, but I stop and say to him that 'he shouldn't drive like that, you almost hit me', attitude is rolling off this guy and he says 'then stay out of the fast lane *****!'.
So I reply 'hey, you about hit me.' and he replies 'so, you want to do something about it?' and gets out of his car.
Before I can reply he tries to open the passenger side door, it's locked, but the window is down. So he reaches in and unlocks it and opens the passenger side door and starts to get in. So... I pull my CC pistol and point it straight at him. He jumps back and slams the door and runs to the back of his car and starts to get something out of the trunk.
I realize this has gone too far and reverse out of there ASAP. He starts throwing things at me from his trunk (bluffing on anything being in there I guess).

This was his report of the incident and was followed by one of the longer threads on the Kansas forum, including input from both two lawyers, and yours truly.
Bottom line for the members of the forum was that he acted imprudently some saying that he provoked the other guy's actions, with others saying that he did not. The general consensus was that even if legal, what he did was not wise. And I would agree with this.
BTW mods, if you think that the C&P that I did here is not kosher, please feel free to delete the post.

If I'm in my vehicle and some unwelcome (aggressive threatening bodily harm/death) person tries to get into my vehicle (unlocking a locked door in the manner described), why would it be unwise to draw? And after shouldn't you call the cops and inform them what happened? Maybe Oklahoma Stand Your Ground is different from Kansas laws.

 

[NikatKimber]

I wouldn't say it was unwise to draw when he did, but rather that his actions leading up to that point were unwise. Following, and approaching someone who has less than perfect control of their emotions.

 

[Soulman]

I wouldn't say it was unwise to draw when he did, but rather that his actions leading up to that point were unwise. Following, and approaching someone who has less than perfect control of their emotions.

Oh, well that makes sense. I thought he was talking about drawing would be unwise. I can certainly see why turning in after him was a big No-No. Was I right though on the stand your ground law if for example, he followed me home, into a parking lot, etc?

 

[NikatKimber]

Oh, well that makes sense. I thought he was talking about drawing would be unwise. I can certainly see why turning in after him was a big No-No. Was I right though on the stand your ground law if for example, he followed me home, into a parking lot, etc?

As far as I know, yes, you had it right under those circumstances.

 

[Quick_Draw_McGraw]

If someone doesn't care enough about their own safety or the safety of others, I highly doubt that they would care about my opinion, so the last thing I would ever do is try to make contact with them to share my thoughts on their dangerous driving.

I keep the Tulsa non-emergency police number, and the highway patrol number in my cell phone to call in drunks and reckless drivers. They CAN ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING about those drivers, and that's why they should be notified.

I've dialed 911 at least two times on some really dangerous drunk drivers, with the worst case being a woman driving on the sidewalk on Brookside in Tulsa.

 

[doctruptwn]

Not to undercut Gerhard here, but I think he should have included the OP's Follow up explanation. While I think everyone would agree that following the person in the neighborhoob was not the smartest thing in the world. The OP lived in the same neighborhood, and would have had to pass by this individual anyway.

To put this in persective, most of the post to this point had advised him to contact the police and attorney:

Did that.
I wasn't in the slow lane anywhere. He almost hit me on Zoo blvd He almost hit a dozen people... This guy was all over, passing people on the shoulder, etc...
Talking to the guy - bad idea. But... not illegal. Never threatened, cursed, etc... You are allowed to express yourself. The physical placement sounds worse on paper than reality. I had to drive right by there to get home regardless. If he would"ve gone to his house I would never have seen him (which would be fine with me!).

Not making excuses, just stating the reality. I didn"t draw till he was coming into my van. He had to get out of his car and make two attempts to gain access to MY vehicle.
Should I have said anything? In hind sight, no way. (You know what they say about hind sight...) But I did not commit a crime per my lawyer.
__________________

 

[gerhard1]

I wouldn't say it was unwise to draw when he did, but rather that his actions leading up to that point were unwise. Following, and approaching someone who has less than perfect control of their emotions.

This was the general consensus on the Kansas board as well.
The only real difference of opinion came in when the question of whether or not his actions were a 'provocation' was raised. Some saw it as a clear provocation while others did not. FWIW even the lawyers who weighed in had different opinions about this. Both of them thought that it was imprudent, as did I and the majority of others, including the OP, but I found the different views of the attorneys interesting.
Interestingly enough, this thread brought up a whole new issue, which I'll get to on another thread, as I don't want to clutter up this one.

 

[gerhard1]

Not to undercut Gerhard here, but I think he should have included the OP's Follow up explanation. While I think everyone would agree that following the person in the neighborhoob was not the smartest thing in the world. The OP lived in the same neighborhood, and would have had to pass by this individual anyway.

To put this in persective, most of the post to this point had advised him to contact the police and attorney:

Did that.
I wasn't in the slow lane anywhere. He almost hit me on Zoo blvd He almost hit a dozen people... This guy was all over, passing people on the shoulder, etc...
Talking to the guy - bad idea. But... not illegal. Never threatened, cursed, etc... You are allowed to express yourself. The physical placement sounds worse on paper than reality. I had to drive right by there to get home regardless. If he would"ve gone to his house I would never have seen him (which would be fine with me!).

Not making excuses, just stating the reality. I didn"t draw till he was coming into my van. He had to get out of his car and make two attempts to gain access to MY vehicle.
Should I have said anything? In hind sight, no way. (You know what they say about hind sight...) But I did not commit a crime per my lawyer.
__________________

I had honestly thought about doing that, but for various reasons I thought it best to only include his narrative of what happened. As Joe Friday would say "Just the facts, Ma'am."
In any event, thank you for your perspective.

 

[doctruptwn]

Well I would have to admit that when I read his first post I thought " What were you thinking MAN, You provoked him." But with the follow up I can see, How he though it would be OK, To mention something to the guy, before it escallated into what eventually happened.

I don't think it was the smartest thing in the world to do, But I have done it myself when in uniform, Although my uniform doesn't offer any protection from an out of control individual like the OP was presented with.