Red Castle's rules...

[leardriver]

The 600 yard range at Red Castle has a nice big berm where you can set up your mats, spotting scopes, and equipment for shooting at steel targets at the various intermediate ranges.

Earlier this week, my son and I had just completed a sighting-in session with our .223 ARs at the bench rest range and were going to check our work on the steel silhouettes at 100 and 200 yards. My son started shooting first, while I spotted for him.

After six or eight shots, we were visited by a man who wanted to make sure we were using the right ammo for that range. The sign nearby said,

"No magnums"
"No armor piercing"
"No tracer"

The man asked if we were using soft points. No, I said, we're shooting FMJ and hollow point. He said, well, you can't use FMJ.

I don't know the guy, but he repeated a least three times that he was a club officer. I told him that was good, but I didn't remember any prohibition against FMJ when I took the club's range orientation course a couple years ago.

He said it's in the rules book, and he offered to show me. In fact, he said, HE is the instructor for the range orientation now.

By this time my son and I were a little soured on the way the day's shooting was ending, so we packed up our gear and left the range.

I did not stick around for the club officer to show me chapter and verse in his rule book. But I have a fundamental question, which I may address at the club's monthly meeting:

Since when is FMJ considered 'armor piercing'?

No Magnums? I get that. Big boomers can definitely tear up the steel targets.

No tracer? I get that, also. We're guests on the Zink Ranch, and prairie fires are a concern.

No armor piercing? I get that, too. Same effect as the magnums, possibly.

But disallowing 55gr FMJ from a .223? At a hundred yards or more? Is that a realistic prohibition?

I've been a member at Red Castle going on three years. I attend most of the monthly meetings. And I read the monthly newsletters put out by the club. Somewhere I missed this policy of equivalence between FMJ and armor piercing.

If you're a club officer reading this forum, please comment. If anyone has experience or expertise in this area, please weigh in with it. I'm willing to learn and be enlightened.

Cap'n Bill

 

[Perplexed]

I haven't heard about any prohibitions on FMJ, but I do know they frown on anyone shooting the steel silhouettes at less than 200 yards. You're supposed to shoot only from the main berm (where the flagpoles and metal rifle rack are located) if you're dinging the steel stuff. Maybe that's what set off the fellow, and he meant that you're not supposed to use FMJ (or any other ammo) closer than 200 yards?

 

[Kid Colt]

I'm also a member at Red Castle.

There is not any doubt that some FMJ is capable of penetrating steel. The range and thickness and exact bullet composition and load all play into it.

I'm pretty sure that most all high power silhouette ranges ask that FMJ not be used but I haven't ever participated in Red Castle's matches and I honestly don't remember them saying it in orientation back when I went through years ago.

I think that the bottom line is they are trying to prevent damage to the silhouettes which cost the club money and downtime to repair or replace and cost members in their ability to use the equipment for it's intended design. Being involved in other clubs at an officer level, I can personally attest to the fact that it does happen and it happens more often that you think. Sometimes you begin to wonder if people are destroying things on purpose.

Anyway, I would suggest bringing it up at the next club meet this upcoming Monday for discussion if you feel strongly about it.

Depends on your goal I guess?

 

[Perplexed]

Another thing - I took the orientation class a year and a half ago, and at the time I was concerned about shooting surplus 30-06 ammo with my M1 Garand. So I asked the fellow leading the orientation about the use of FMJ on the steel target range, and he told me it was fine. Just to shoot from the main berm, was all.

 

[leardriver]

Depends on your goal I guess?

My goal is simple and not sinister at all.

My goal is to play by the rules and continue to be a good member.

My secondary goal is to see if the rules need to be adjusted so that whole classes of rifles and ammo are not unnecessarily excluded from the 600 yard range.

I know there has been a problem with .50cal tearing up the targets as well as the berms backing up the targets. I get that.

However, I don't believe wear and tear on the steel targets is being exacerbated by 55gr .223. I imagine that a .30-06 hunting round would cause more damage at a hundred yards than the .223 FMJ. If I'm wrong, then, as I wrote near the end of my first post, I am prepared to be enlightened. Maybe a demonstration of the .30-06 compared to the .223 could be arranged.

And, yes, we were shooting strictly from the main berm, where the flagpoles are.

Cap'n Bill

 

[Beercules]

My favorite range at Red Castle! I shoot XM193 on this range and I have never seen it damage any of the steel targets. The Orientation book is the only 'rule book' I have ever seen as a member (link below). The top of page 4 outlines the rules and limitations for the High Power Rifle Silhouette Range and specifically prohibits AP and "ultra-high-velocity ammo." Not a word about FMJ, and I'm not even sure the 55gr bullet would crater the targets at 200m and beyond.

http://www.tulsaredcastlegunclub.com/Orientation.pdf

 

[Perplexed]

Earlier this week, my son and I had just completed a sighting-in session with our .223 ARs at the bench rest range and were going to check our work on the steel silhouettes at 100 and 200 yards.

And, yes, we were shooting strictly from the main berm, where the flagpoles are.

Cap'n Bill

The closest line of steel targets (the chickens) to the main berm is 200 yards. So I'm confused by the 100-yard comment

 

[mr ed]

Way back when that rule was established. Most of the available surplus was steel core. the targets were made of a steel hard enough to withstand soft points but not steel core. they may be starting to enforce this again because we are continuing to get damage and the casings we are picking up off the ground are copper wash 308 and 762x54 which are both mostly steel core or at least steel jacket. also found some empty boxes for LC885 which has steel penetrators if i'm not mistaken.

 

[Beercules]

The closest line of steel targets (the chickens) to the main berm is 200 yards. So I'm confused by the 100-yard comment

+1

The distances from the main berm are actually 200m, 300m, 385m, and 500m.

 

[mr ed]

Part of the problem is also that they address all silhouettes the same to keep confusion to a minimum.
If you take a FMJ 223 in a 14-16 inch contender and shoot on the pistol range. It will crater or penetrate the pigs which are at 100yds.
I ran a guy off the pistol silhouette range the other day who was shooting the pistol silhouettes with a 222rem. rifle and couldn't understand why they were not falling down. fortunately he only hit one pig. it "drilled" neat little 1/8 inch holes.