.

[JD8]

Jesus... Im not berating anyone. Not understanding where your getting that impression either. If you want numbers and crap then read up on DR Martin Fackler, COL Retired. A former Army and Navy trauma surgeon who was the first to study wound ballistics. HERES A HINT; His work is where the FBI originally got a lot of this data about bullet penetration

Go back and review post #21, I'm not sure how else your post could be received.

Glad you're up to speed on Fackler, was reading him 15+ years ago (and all the rebuttals.) But guess what he used to come to his initial conclusions? That's right.... 10% ballistic gel..... of which he developed. Of which you say is insufficient in predicting any results. He also speaks of my energy question, and subsequently other individuals address it also, but I think we are getting too deep there. Finally, one of the things you seemed to have scanned over is that the round I chose and posted test of, had superior penetration (not expansion because it's not a HP) for a .380. Of which, that round exceeds Fackler's initial minimum 12" requirement.

Point is, if you come and want tell everyone about ballistics, you might want to realize that others may have done their homework.

 

[JD8]

Actually no, the expansion channel has shown to cause almost no damage to tissue. I'm sure the expansion is incredibly painful but that's just from having a massive cavity suddenly open up inside you. There is literally VERY little damage. The only tissue that is actually damaged by a bullet is the actual tissue that comes in contact with the bullet

Nope. Keep researching. Organs will hemorrhage and tissues will rupture.... this has been shown time and time again. This is what I was eluding to when I asked about energy being on a linear scale. By your theory, there would be no other risk of shock in an abdomen hit outside of the bullet path.

 

[dennishoddy]

When yer ancient 1911 don't go bang because it’s a jam-o-matic, the 380 is more powerful.

(1911 vs modern discussion) lol

Your 1911 may be a jam-o-matic, mine isn't. And no, I don't wish to start a 1911 discussion again. I grow weary of that.

 

[rc508pir]

Go back and review post #21, I'm not sure how else your post could be received.

Glad you're up to speed on Fackler, was reading him 15+ years ago (and all the rebuttals.) But guess what he used to come to his initial conclusions? That's right.... 10% ballistic gel..... of which he developed. Of which you say is insufficient in predicting any results. He also speaks of my energy question, and subsequently other individuals address it also, but I think we are getting too deep there. Finally, one of the things you seemed to have scanned over is that the round I chose and posted test of, had superior penetration (not expansion because it's not a HP) for a .380. Of which, that round exceeds Fackler's initial minimum 12" requirement.

Point is, if you come and want tell everyone about ballistics, you might want to realize that others may have done their homework.

1. Post 21 was me being sarcastic, and that's just one post, not berating everyone.

2. Ballistic gel was only part of Facklers research. He also studied ballistics on animals. Goats in particular, that were used in the Special Forces 18D Q Course were often studied by Fackler. This is where he bring the point that bones and organs play a big part, between caliber, bullet weight and power behind the bullet come into play. Those goats were shot from everything from 22lr to 45. It depended on what wound the SF Instructors were trying to achieve.

3. I addressed your chosen 380 but some how it didnt post. It was only a partial post. There are 5 loads there and 2 were JHP XTP and you didnt specify which of the 3 left were the load you use. Or at least if you did, I missed it

 

[rc508pir]

Nope. Keep researching. Organs will hemorrhage and tissues will rupture.... this has been shown time and time again. This is what I was eluding to when I asked about energy being on a linear scale. By your theory, there would be no other risk of shock in an abdomen hit outside of the bullet path.

Yeah, sometimes they do which again, the body is self sealing by means of swelling. Swelling from torn tissue limits bleeding.
You do realize that this context is about using 380 as a SD caliber right? It doesn't matter that a guy bleeds out an hour later and dies from wounds, because in the meantime, he can still kill you. What matters is stopping the fight then and there.

 

[rc508pir]

Under 100 meters (when it impacts a body), the 55gr yaws around 90 dergrees and fragments. Over 100 it yaws and breaks into two pieces. 200 and beyond it yaws 180 degrees and stays intact. Yaw/tumble, is close enough for typing on a phone. It breaks up because of the yaw/tumble.

The Army is looking for a replacement for the 62 gr, which was designed to penetrate Russian body armor, because of lack of lethal effectiveness in unarmored enemy.

The point still stands that penetration alone is not the end all / be all. Do you shoot ball ammo in your chosen caliber, or expanding rounds?

Lastly, I agree that 380 is not as effective as some other calibers. No one has demonstrated that it’s not effective. Again, where are all the examples of folks killed by bad guys because they mistakenly chose a 380? Reading the interwebz and how all the experts agree it’s inadequate, it shouldn’t be too hard to find.

Its not the yaw that causes the bullet to fragment. Its the deformation of the soft lead core. The bullet has already begun to deform by hitting the abdominal wall, before yaw begins. M193 fired from a 16 1:7 twist still comes apart in the body and its yaws far less than from a 1:12 in 20in barrel.

 

[JD8]

1. Post 21 was me being sarcastic, and that's just one post, not berating everyone.

2. Ballistic gel was only part of Facklers research. He also studied ballistics on animals. Goats in particular, that were used in the Special Forces 18D Q Course were often studied by Fackler. This is where he bring the point that bones and organs play a big part, between caliber, bullet weight and power behind the bullet come into play. Those goats were shot from everything from 22lr to 45. It depended on what wound the SF Instructors were trying to achieve.

3. I addressed your chosen 380 but some how it didnt post. It was only a partial post. There are 5 loads there and 2 were JHP XTP and you didnt specify which of the 3 left were the load you use. Or at least if you did, I missed it

1. If you say so. The sarcasm fits your narrative lock step though.

2. True, but in terms of repeatable results or more importantly, verifiable results..... ballistic gel it was. Either way, you dismissed gel results completely.

3. I did. You just missed it. #14

 

[JD8]

Yeah, sometimes they do which again, the body is self sealing by means of swelling. Swelling from torn tissue limits bleeding.
You do realize that this context is about using 380 as a SD caliber right? It doesn't matter that a guy bleeds out an hour later and dies from wounds, because in the meantime, he can still kill you. What matters is stopping the fight then and there.

Swelling isn't instantaneous. You said it didn't cause damage... it does.

Of course I realize the context. I picked a load that has deep penetration relative to the caliber it is. So if I pick a .380 for whatever reason, the load has shown to perform well.

 

[rc508pir]

Swelling isn't instantaneous. You said it didn't cause damage... it does.

Of course I realize the context. I picked a load that has deep penetration relative to the caliber it is. So if I pick a .380 for whatever reason, the load has shown to perform well.

Alrighty then, If you want to argue about it more, then PM me

 

[Go_Ordnance]

Its not the yaw that causes the bullet to fragment. Its the deformation of the soft lead core. The bullet has already begun to deform by hitting the abdominal wall, before yaw begins. M193 fired from a 16 1:7 twist still comes apart in the body and its yaws far less than from a 1:12 in 20in barrel.

The fact that it yaws is what begins deformation. The forces are acting on a larger surface area because it yaws. Twist doesn’t really matter for the 193. The 855 is the twist sensitive bullet.