Evolution

[Werewolf]

I have a buddy that puts all his stock into a God, but will not discuss it with me. It all started when he said that there were no dinosaurs. Said they were all made up by scientists and got all mad.

I dont get it, he's a smart guy too.

Welcome to the club 120. You aren't alone.
My father - Full Colonel in the Air Force, extremely well educated in the sciences, and 99% of the time a rational and logical man. But - he was a devout Christian and categorically denied even the remotest possibility that evolution is the explanation. My father believed that the world and universe are 6,000 years old and that was that. GOD created it all. How did he know? The Bible (written by man - ahhhh the irony) told him so.

Amazing - simply amazing to me that he held that view. Believed it without question. We argued it for years. We never ever came to an understanding (agreement was impossible).

 

[Lurker66]

Welcome to the club 120. You aren't alone.
My father - Full Colonel in the Air Force, extremely well educated in the sciences, and 99% of the time a rational and logical man. But - he was a devout Christian and categorically denied even the remotest possibility that evolution is the explanation. The world and universe are 6,000 years old and that is that. GOD created it all. How did he know? The Bible (written by man - ahhhh the irony) told him so.

Amazing - simply amazing to me that he held that view. Believed it without question. We argued it for years. We never ever came to an understanding (agreement was impossible).

That's where this conversation will go as well.

 

[Cohiba]

Ah, poor, poor, Galileo and The Church...how dare he try to prove anything contrary to the Church's beliefs and teachings..

He almost reached blasphemy and execution by the Roman Inqusition. Oh well, house arrest was better than death and condemnation.

The Galileo Affair...

 

[Eagle Eye]

That's where this conversation will go as well.

It doesn't have to... Maybe someone should explain the science behind evolution? I would gladly help

 

[mugsy]

I too believe in a literal, 6 day creation. God said it, so be it. Something can't come from nothing.

Well, you are really talking about the creation/start of the universe not the evolution of life on Earth per se. But I do agree that astronomers and cosmologists run into a logical problem when they go all the way back to the beginning, i.e. what is the "prime cause"? I am not as certain about the physical evolution of life on Earth. There seems to be a lot of good evidence that makes me think a literal interpretation of Genesis is not the best way to approach it. On the other hand, we never will "truly" know because it is not the kind of thing that can be demonstrated like say a theory of how nuclear fusion can produce a rapid release of energy. Yet, the desire for some folks (and not only the religious ones, not by a long shot) to have everyone genuflect before their understanding of truth will no doubt cause many fights over this.

 

[Cohiba]

Evolution in a nutshell...

Phenotype characteristics changed and evolved over numerous generations (over time).

A lot were selected "for"....and survived. Example: Bears...a common ancester but as conditions changed and migration to new areas these organisms had to evolve over time. Brown bear lives in a forest....dark conditions. White bear lives at the Norther extremes...white conditions. If the brown bear moved to the "white" condition...it would die. It isn't camouflaged and couldn't catch its food.

It also doesn't have the thick coat and other traits as the polar bear.


That kiddos is the very simplistic version of evolution. If you want more on this subject, do like ol' Cohiba did...a Bachelors in Chemistry, Biology, and Business...then a Masters in Environmental Biology. There are a lot more qualified folks than me to explain this...they're called Professors.

 

[Blitzfike]

Put me on the list of scientists who do not see a conflict between the science of evolution (not the caricature of evolution in popular press) and my Christian beliefs. In fact, I went to a Christian College (center College of KY) and studied religion for a couple of years.

I believe the conflict mostly arises from shallow understanding of both, and confusing a belief in WHO made the rules and made it ALL happen, and HOW it was supposedly done, AS DECIDED BY SOME PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T THERE and haven't studied it.

The Bible clearly says we humans don't understand God's time, and our thousand years is but a day to him.....so when I study HOW things happen, I'm studying God's works. His language is written in the universe, and it takes a lot of study to read it. Genesis, inspired by God, was nonetheless written by people struggling to understand it, but not really grasping it all.

Try explaining your technical job to your 8 year old nephew, and have him write it down as he understands it........see what I mean?

I firmly believe in divine creation, but I am not arrogant enough to try to limit God's methods and timeline to my puny understanding of physics and the universe, and I've spent a lifetime studying it. The universe is more complicated than we imagine, and possibly more complicated than we CAN imagine. And God created it to be the way HE wanted, not to please people. The more I learn, I realize how much more there is to know.

This is pretty close to my belief as well with respect to science and Divine Creation. As we understand more about Quantum Mechanics, I thnk we are more readily able to see the limits of our understanding of the universe and its existence, or maybe how little we really understand. I believe our conciousness exists in a linear time stream, existing within the fabric of the universe, contained in its own little bubble. The existence of "forever" meaning that everything that ever was, is, or will be all exists within the same fabric of the universe, but not discernible to us within our bubble. We as individual entities within that bubble have free choice for what we do as individuals, but God, existing outside that small bubble can see it all at a glance and knows the outcome of our choices already. Some would think that takes away from the concept of free will, but I personally think not, as we each pursued the course dictated by our personal actions. My simple linearly defined human mind cannot wrap my thoughts completely around things outside a linear time experience. Whether the question is where did God come from, or where did the universe come from contains the same block to understanding to me. My Son did a science project in his youth that changed the eye color of fruit fly's through genetic manipulation through selective breeding. That, to me, proves that evolution exists. Do I believe that I evolved from an ape? No, I still believe through faith in Divine Creation. Just some thoughts..

 

[mugsy]

Ah, poor, poor, Galileo and The Church...how dare he try to prove anything contrary to the Church's beliefs and teachings..

He almost reached blasphemy and execution by the Roman Inqusition. Oh well, house arrest was better than death and condemnation.

The Galileo Affair...

If you would like to read an interesting, albeit kind of lengthy, discussion of the real issues involving Galileo versus the "Big bad Church picks on poor virtuous scientist" drivel that you are often fed in school or on discussion boards, try this:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/#4
There is a fairly good discussion of how the Holy Office - Cardinal Bellarmine specifically - evaluated what Galileo proposed as physical evidence backing up his theory. The entry discusses the evidence fairly dispassionately. The real issue was how is truth decided and who gets to make declarations of what is now "truth" versus theory or speculation.

For those who believe that we are so much beyond that because "real" scientists work based on evidence now, try watching the man-made global warming discussions. Note what happens to those who buck a certain politico-scientific orthodoxy that has developed.

 

[Eagle Eye]

Evolution in a nutshell...

Phenotype characteristics changed and evolved over numerous generations (over time).

A lot were selected "for"....and survived. Example: Bears...a common ancester but as conditions changed and migration to new areas these organisms had to evolve over time. Brown bear lives in a forest....dark conditions. White bear lives at the Norther extremes...white conditions. If the brown bear moved to the "white" condition...it would die. It isn't camouflaged and couldn't catch its food.

It also doesn't have the thick coat and other traits as the polar bear.


That kiddos is the very simplistic version of evolution. If you want more on this subject, do like ol' Cohiba did...a Bachelors in Chemistry, Biology, and Business...then a Masters in Environmental Biology. There are a lot more qualified folks than me to explain this...they're called Professors.

A good effort sir, but oversimplifying something complex invites misunderstanding
Some key points to keep in mind about evolution

First, It is important to know that evolution does not always result in a faster, stronger, all around better hunter. In nature the environment determines who eats, lives and breeds. If the environment changes, then those traits that were favorable before may no longer be favorable. So the fastest cheetah may not have a great fitness if there is no prey to chase
Second, Evolution does not occur in individuals. It happens in populations. A change in an individual is called phenotypic plasticity. example: A swine raised in captivity may be hairless (well almost) but when it escapes it will grow hairy as hell.

 

[JeffT]

A good effort sir, but oversimplifying something complex invites misunderstanding
Some key points to keep in mind about evolution

First, It is important to know that evolution does not always result in a faster, stronger, all around better hunter. In nature the environment determines who eats, lives and breeds. If the environment changes, then those traits that were favorable before may no longer be favorable.
Second, Evolution does not occur in individuals. It happens to populations. A change in an individual is called phenotypic plasticity. example: A swine raised in captivity may be hairless but when it escapes, it will grow hairy as hell.

Does this "Evolution" not have to happen in individuals first, then be extended through generations of offspring, in order for it to happen to populations ?