I'm a scope-tard

[vdub]

The problem was in you stating that 5.56/.223 was range limited to 600yds when in fact it technically is not. I don't think anyone was arguing that it would be a difficult task to hit a target at 1000yd with a 5.56/.223 especially in the areas of wind reading. However, the fact is the 5.56/.223 is not range limited to 600yds but the skill goes more to the shooter's ability to successfully hit targets when the range increases.

I would probably wage a pretty good amount of money that quite a few people frequenting these forums, myself include, couldn't hit a target at 1000yds consistently with a .308 much less the 5.56/.223. It does not mean those calibers are range limited but it means the skill of shooter is not developed enough to do so. It is more about educating and helping with the facts than stating things that are not accurate in the way you state them.

Stating that it is range limited to 600yds is almost like saying that since a car has a handicap sticker or license plate, then the car is automatically limited in speed and performance and will be worse than another car without a handicap sticker or license plate.

 

[338Shooter]

Good grief.
two Australians stop by here each year on their way to perry and workup their ARs. Let me assure everyone those rifles are a HELLOVA lot more than a good barrel and trigger.

Just out of curiosity, do you own a 'Perry' 5.56? Like I said, they are highly specialized rifles, i dont recall out OP saying he has a Perry Special. What do you think those rifles cost?

But I'll gladly spot for any off the shelf 5.56 trying for 1000. Even one with a woo-hoo special twist. Seen waaay too many should do 1000 rifles not get close.

Oh and just because I dont like myths, its not the rifle specs that give the 308 better 'specs' to 1000. Its the very cartridge itself. not that the 308 is all that and a bag of chips, but the 5.56 sucks butt.

just a bit of wind and most here would throw in the towel... but if beleiving because a very select few can do it then the door is open for everyone...

Well that bridge is still for sale.

Stick to 600 and when you cant miss at that distance then you can spend the big bucks for a 'Perry' special.

You don't have to be a jerk. You made an incorrect statement that the limits on 223 was 600 yards. That is all I was addressing.

The 80rg bullets like the A-max with a .453 BC loaded at over 2600fps will still be super sonic at 1000.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

However, the fact is the 5.56/.223 is not range limited to 600yds but the skill goes more to the shooter's ability to successfully hit targets when the range increases.

You could say the same about the .22 long rifle (which can go a mile). Hey with enough skill you can cope with a transsonic event and decameters of drift and drop, right?

I'm squarely in the ".223 is a poor choice for anything past 300 yards, unless your *primary goal* is to make things hard/challenging on yourself, at the expense of good groups" camp.

My theory is, why not make it easier on yourself, instead of harder, by choosing a cartridge/bullet combo that gets there quickly with a good BC? .308 is a relatively poor long range cartridge too (you heard that right), relative to the .260 and such, but with something like a 155 scenar, it's still 2-3 times better than a .223, even one with a 7 or 6.5 twist and a 80-100 high-BC bullet.

But, vdub and DU are certainly exactly (technically) correct when they say:

The problem was in you stating that 5.56/.223 was range limited to 600yds when in fact it technically is not.

 

[BadKarma]

Back to the subject at hand. Wotac scopes are good for the money. I have three of them on 223's and 308's. I've been really happy with them.
Matt is a great guy and his customer service is top notch.

Matt Wonder
Wonder Optics
[email protected]
Phone: 918-528-6563
sightwonders.com

 

[vdub]

I'm squarely in the ".223 is a poor choice for anything past 300 yards, unless your *primary goal* is to make things hard/challenging on yourself, at the expense of good groups" camp.

I was very easily able to hit a MGM steel popper at 300m with Privi 55gr FMJ ammo. However, I was using a 3.5-15x50 scope to do so. Did I miss sometimes when the wind kicked up? Sure but it was not that hard to compensate for it the next shot. The longer the range the more the shooter's skills come into play. I don't think that is just limited to .223/5.56 either. With the bigger calibers, you can usually extend the range more before your skills have to be improved to make hits.

My theory is, why not make it easier on yourself, instead of harder, by choosing a cartridge/bullet combo that gets there quickly with a good BC? .308 is a relatively poor long range cartridge too (you heard that right), relative to the .260 and such, but with something like a 155 scenar, it's still 2-3 times better than a .223, even one with a 7 or 6.5 twist and a 80-100 high-BC bullet.

I agree with this. I have a 308 and reload with 155gr Scenars and have great success with accuracy. It makes shooting steel a lot easier at longer ranges on the silhouette range. However not everyone can afford the higher caliber cartridges and still shoot enough to improve their skills. Cost is a factor in the overall equation. A lot easier and cheaper to practice with .223/5.56 then move to a higher caliber when your skills improve.

 

[348]

It's cool how my scope question turned into a ballistics pissing match. Since I don't have access to a 1000 yard range, then I don't have to worry about it. My skill level will be limited to 600 yards or less for now.

 

[shootermcgavin]

I am by NOOOO stretch of the imagination an expert... I wouldn't even consider myself knowledgeable, but this is what I went with.

It isn't super great but I really like it. It is the Nikon 3-9x50 with the BDC. It was 184 on ebay. I saw one at Wal-Mart for 195 I think. I have it sighted right at 200 yards and can pretty consistantly shoot a clay pigeon. There is a lot of my error involved too because I am not a great shooter.

 

[MadDawg]

Not being a jerk, being first hand knowledgeable rather than quoting paper stats as facts.

Specialized 5.56 rifles can and do hit out to 1000, but we were not talking about ones of those were we? Super woo-whoo bullets can reach that far well on calm days, but it takes a very special twist rarely found in factory rifles.

I thought I was being very generous, based on my FIRST HAND experience, in giving a factory AR 600 yards. Especially in any sort of gusty wind and compared to the 308.

Now on calm early mornings when the spotter can see trace and not have to fight every gust he can get a Factory AR on at 600 enough times to feel good. try again after lunch when the thermal winds gust hard and fitfuly and the success rate drops to dammitt.

But feel free to try and take me to task by quoting BCs and the success of the very cream of the 5.56 world.

 

[338Shooter]

I'd hardly call 7 twist ARs and 75-80gr .224 bullets "woo hoo". 7 twist is very special and rarely found on factory rifles?

No one said it wasn't hard. You said it was range limited to 600 yards. You were wrong.

I'm sorry this thread has been derailed OP. If you've got the scratch you can't go wrong with NightForce. Plus, you could always sell it later for very little loss on the hide if you go with MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL and a zero stop.

 

[shootermcgavin]

I'd hardly call 7 twist ARs and 75-80gr .224 bullets "woo hoo". 7 twist is very special and rarely found on factory rifles?

No one said it wasn't hard. You said it was range limited to 600 yards. You were wrong.

Oh no he didn't! Bazinga!