I'm a scope-tard

[vdub]

Well, I am going to have to change my mind and agree with Mad Dawg. Since he is the BTDT guy and spoke so confidently about the range, I started doing research about the range of the .223/5.56 when I came across the truth. Now just to see if he will tell me where I can find those "woo whoo bullets" he is talking about!!!!!!!!

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[criticalbass]

Burris makes pretty good scopes. http://www.natchezss.com/ is a good place to look, though I recently picked up a new-in-box 3-9 30mm Burris scope on eBay for a hundred dollars under the lowest retail price I could find. Burris scopes have a lifetime warranty. I have several and have had no trouble with them. CB

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

vdub, if I were willing to further derail the original topic, to continue on the .223 range issue, which I'm not - I would say that your chart is freakin hilarious, especially the dead cross-eyes bullet there! But are you trying to tell us that it actually hits the ground at 600, now matter how high at 599 yards, but THEN it bounces a couple of times, out to around 620 yards, before finally coming to rest? Because if so, I don't believe that. I believe that it disintegrates immediately at 600.

 

[shootermcgavin]

vdub, if I were willing to further derail the original topic, to continue on the .223 range issue, which I'm not - I would say that your chart is freakin hilarious, especially the dead cross-eyes bullet there! But are you trying to tell us that it actually hits the ground at 600, now matter how high at 599 yards, but THEN it bounces a couple of times, out to around 620 yards, before finally coming to rest? Because if so, I don't believe that. I believe that it disintegrates immediately at 600.

Yeah, it is pretty funny. I wanna know are you shooting the gun at that angle? Because if you are shooting the gun for all intents and purposes flat/ straight parallel with the ground, that is one heck of a rise that bullet takes to go over 100 inches high. I don't think I can believe your chart anymore.

 

[MadDawg]

It always interesting to see the breakdown on these sort of dis-cuss-ions.

There was plenty typed but I must have missed the part where some said, "I have shot..." instead there is quite a bit of i have read.

I have seen the many roll calls on ARs here, some sweeeet looking mouse guns they be! But an odd thing, for all the 5.56 owners here I dont hear them agreeing with a couple of guys who cite what a select few, and I do mean what a VERY select few can do.

But tell you what, these two experts can show us just how well they go out past 700 yards with their 5.56 lasers. I do love some humorous interwebz pics but I'd like to see some 800 yard pics. I know better than to ask these two for 1K pics.

GENTLEMEN- PM me and we can work out a meet and shoot this thing. We will shoot your death rays at first light when conditions are mild and then again after lunch.

I have spent years working with a wide variety of LE types. I want them to be the best they can be because oneday a civilian might just need assistance from a distance. I TRUELY want their special mouse guns to work. I've seen way too many factory 1 in 7's be more tempermental than a high school beauty queen feeling 'bloaty'. Oneday they love a certain bullet wieght or make, next time they poop out like rabbit turds. What they do on a warm day vs cold. And last but not least once the winds want to educate you on mass vs BC.

In the interest of full disclosure its not that i dont care for the mouse gun that colors this. I helped a young man shoot his 6.8 out to 800 oneday. I'd of bet cash money it wouldnt do that.

So I speak from experience not from what I read.

Gentlemen, PM me and we can arrange this thing.

 

[338Shooter]

Neither of us claimed to be able to do it or even have guns capable of doing so. I guess that means that +600 yards with a .223 is impossible. We do both shoot to 600 yards at the okc gun club and would love to have somewhere handy to shoot farther.

You said 223 was range limited to 600 yards and it just isn't. There are a lot of people that couldn't shoot a 223 to 300 yards let alone 1000. But that isn't the fault of the round. By my calculations an 80gr Berger VLD fired at 2600 fps will still be supersonic and only experience 9.5 minutes of windage in a 10 mph cross wind. Yes that is double what my 338 lapua sees but not incomprehensible. I know that is a magic bullet that one can only get from St. Peter at the pearly gates and can only be stabilized by a 1:7 twist barrel that even the likes of Kreiger can't even produce, but if the stars are aligned properly and the nut behind the trigger does his job it can be done.

You basically said it was impossible, and you were wrong. I'm not quite sure how this is so difficult for you to grasp. You even admitted it was possible by at least one person and more since you said "few". The one thing I'm not sure about is what those few are doing that others can't. Are they shooting MOA groups, minute of man groups, hitting a certain size steel target, or what. You act like the bullet just dies at 600 yards. It doesn't. The guys that shoot high power are awesome. I'll take a scoped rifle for my long range work. I'd love to try a 223 bolt gun to 1k. You find the range and provide the gun and I'll buy the ammo and I'll lay down behind it and give it a whirl. With you calling wind, how could I miss?

 

[vdub]

It always interesting to see the breakdown on these sort of dis-cuss-ions.

There was plenty typed but I must have missed the part where some said, "I have shot..." instead there is quite a bit of i have read.

I have seen the many roll calls on ARs here, some sweeeet looking mouse guns they be! But an odd thing, for all the 5.56 owners here I dont hear them agreeing with a couple of guys who cite what a select few, and I do mean what a VERY select few can do.

But tell you what, these two experts can show us just how well they go out past 700 yards with their 5.56 lasers. I do love some humorous interwebz pics but I'd like to see some 800 yard pics. I know better than to ask these two for 1K pics.

GENTLEMEN- PM me and we can work out a meet and shoot this thing. We will shoot your death rays at first light when conditions are mild and then again after lunch.

I have spent years working with a wide variety of LE types. I want them to be the best they can be because oneday a civilian might just need assistance from a distance. I TRUELY want their special mouse guns to work. I've seen way too many factory 1 in 7's be more tempermental than a high school beauty queen feeling 'bloaty'. Oneday they love a certain bullet wieght or make, next time they poop out like rabbit turds. What they do on a warm day vs cold. And last but not least once the winds want to educate you on mass vs BC.

In the interest of full disclosure its not that i dont care for the mouse gun that colors this. I helped a young man shoot his 6.8 out to 800 oneday. I'd of bet cash money it wouldnt do that.

So I speak from experience not from what I read.

Gentlemen, PM me and we can arrange this thing.

MadDawg,

Why the sudden increase in range to 700yd or 800yds? Not too confident in your original 600yd claim now? The fact remains your original claims were completely incorrect even admittedly so by your own claims. Neither of us argued that it required more skill on the shooter's part but you fail to acknowledge that. You seem only targeted on trying to prove your claims of the range limitations, even though you upped the range to 700yd and 800yd now!!!

It is clear that you are trying to cover your tracks and shift attention to my shooting abilities like that will prove your claim. It will only go further in proving my claim the .223/5.56 is not limited to 600yds but when the range is increased the shooter's skill must as well to make hits consistently. So what does your challenge prove? You ran your mouth and state something that wasn't correct and now have to resort to a challenge?

Maybe the reason others aren't agreeing with us is because they have not either seen it happen, done it themselves or you are doing enough on your own to make yourself look like you don't know what you are talking about. Please find a place where I said I read about the .223/5.56 range capabilities, other than my completely facetious post about agreeing with you. I have seen several people shoot National Match AR15's at 600yds using nothing but iron sights, very accurately, and very consistently. Must have been a bunch of woo-whoo bullets with special twist barrels!! Oh wait, I don't think that was the case when I talked to the people shooting. Sure they had plenty of skill and practice!!! I give credit to the shooters cause some were better than others. Didn't seem to have any problems with 600yd shooting though.

As for meeting you, I have no desire to meet with you so you can call wind for me. Besides I don't have an AR setup for any kind of long range shooting. I have an AI AW in 308 which will shoot just fine at the ranges you listed. I have shot at 600yds and didn't have any problems hitting the target.

But I revert back to my statement that since you are the BTDT guy evidently no one else can be correct. However by your own admissions, the .223/5.56 can be shot out past 600yds but for some reason they need woo-whoo bullets and special twist barrels. Guess I am not following the part where the bullet and barrel twist changes it from .223/5.56 caliber. Guess I have not BTDT to understand that logic.

 

[MadDawg]

V-
My original statement was the 5.56 cant go past 600. You and dust claim otherwise so shooting 600 isnt the issue. (though with some gusty winds the 5.56 struggles at 600.)

V, its not your skill we will test, if you can shoot submoa @ 100 I'll spot for you. out as far as we can go. All the skill you need to the ability to hold a consistent group @ 100. Its my rep on the line eitherway. If you can later shoot out to 7 or 800 with another spotter i look bad. I dont plan on looking bad, not on this one!

read the test again, we shoot at first light when the wind is down, trace is great. Thinking you are the one flinging poo as you retrograde.

I have max confidence in what i say. I have experience to back it up. I quickly agreed that with special bullets and very well put together rifles the 5.56 can go to 1000, but for a very few select folks.

But not the OP's rig. (its not setup for LR just like you claim about yurs)

Simple deal, you jumped on a nit and picked away. Neither mature or knowledgeable.

Dust-
by all means you should contact me, I have access to 1000 yards. I'd suggest the dependance on 'what the computer says' be kept to a minimum. I can tell you this much... IF the extremely mild recoiling 5.56 could do what your calculations say the 5.56 would rule LR.

NO ONE shoots LR looking for the extreme recoil. If the VLDs could do so well then 5.56 wouldnt be so scarce in LR F-Class where the rifle can be anything you want as long as it is under the wieght restriction.

But there are other factors involved as the myriad of 1-7 rifles out there that cant go to 1000 show.

I have learned something from this. In posting I'll make a much better effort to list all exceptions and limitations to my simple statements. I forget some with no experience but have read someplace are waiting to attempt some interwebz knowledge even if they lack the experience.

My bad, I'll start being very careful around the interweb experts.

If I had just included one more word... YOUR 5.56 cant go past 600 yards therefore... sure opened the door for 2 count em 2 nit pickers to tell us all about what they havent done.

But gentlemen the offer still stands, bring the mouse guns, as well as yur 308s. I mean how many times do you get an offer to shoot to 1000 yards?

Just leave the nit picking at home, it seems to be best online not in realtime.

 

[338Shooter]

My computer says 9.5 minutes at 1k in 10mph full value wind. Dead nuts? probably not, close? I'd put $5 on it.
223 can and will do around what my calculations showed. It doesn't rule LR because there are better cartridges that aren't brutal to the shooter that also shoot much higher BC bullets at much higher velocities. The F open guys have very heavy rifles and precision rests. Recoil really isn't a factor on an F-open 6.5-284. Barrel life sucks, but you can't say it isn't a great flat shooting round.

80gr VLDs aren't special bullets.

 

[shootermcgavin]

Maybe the reason others aren't agreeing with us is because they have not either seen it happen, done it themselves or you are doing enough on your own to make yourself look like you don't know what you are talking about.

I just enjoy watching the caliber pissing contest this thread about SCOPES has become. That said, I think both sides are just getting to defiant in their positions. I agree with Dustin and V that when I first read that comment I thought it sounded like you were saying the .223 wasn't capable of reaching 600 yards period, let alone with any accuracy. I was a bit taken back and on the "that ain't right side" as well.

I also realize that (I think) mad wasn't saying the bullet couldn't go that far, but that for the most part most people don't have any business doing 600 yard shots regularly, especially someone who is admittedly a "scope-tard" (like that phrase by the way).

So, can we say that the OP doesn't need to worry about a set up for 600 yards right now, but that given the right shooter/ gun a 600 yard shot is perfectly feasible? If we can't, then for a little kick back I say,