Reasonable suspicion/ R.A.S.

[MLR]

Have any courts ruled that an officer not knowing whether or not a person have violated any laws is R.A.S.?
Examples:
1) An officer sees an adult driving a vehicle on the highway but does not know if the person has a license to drive.
2) An officer sees an adult openly carrying a firearm in a State that allows open carry but does not know if the person has the required license.

Is not knowing if the persons in either example are within the law R.A.S. to stop and detain them?

Michael

 

[okiebryan]

Example 1 has been ruled to be unreasonable search and seizure and therefore unconstitutional by Scotus. Delaware v Prouse

Example 2 has not been declared to be unreasonable nor unconstitutional by any appellate court. Care to be the test case?

I will show my license on demand. If I am asked any other questions, or if they try to "run" my info, then I will ask for my license back and express that I wish to end the encounter and be on my way.

Edited to add: If I am subjected to the license check more than once from the same officer, or if I am checked many times in the course of the day, then I likely will file a complaint. If the harassment continues, I will document it and ask my legislators to change the law.

 

[MLR]

I have never had a problem with identifying myself if asked. I also have no problem with the following portion of the law.

It shall be unlawful for any person to fail or refuse to identify the fact that the person is in actual possession of a concealed handgun pursuant to the authority of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act when the person first comes into contact with any law enforcement officer of this state or its political subdivisions or a federal law enforcement officer during the course of any arrest, detainment, or routine traffic stop.

Do police need R.A.S. of a crime to create the scenario I just highlighted? Does the fact that I am doing something that requires a permit negate the need for the officer to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed before he detains me?

Michael

 

[okiebryan]

Starting Nov 1, there are several little aspects of this new law that will be contradictory or at least silly. For instance, if an officer approaches for a license check b/c you are carrying a visible handgun, you STILL HAVE TO NOTIFY if you are being detained. How do you know if you are being detained? Ask, I guess. But it's possible to have an officer check your permit without it being a legal detention, I think. It's confusing.

I'm working on another article that outlines how OKOCA recommends handling police encounters. We are still compiling advice from attorneys and police officers. Some of it makes sense, the rest we will have to just see.

One thing to keep in mind, cops don't have to tell you their RAS. For example... you are walking down the street minding your own business. Cops rolls up on you and asks for your permit, you present it, he looks at it, hands it back and says have a nice day. Next encounter, you are walking down the street minding your own business. Cop rolls up on you and starts barking orders to get on the ground and put your hands on your head. Now he handcuffs you and relieves you of your firearm...While you are thinking this cop is violating your rights, he actually has a report of an armed robbery 3 blocks away matching your description and clothing. He doesn't have to tell you that, and if you argue or resist your day is gonna go really badly.

See how the totality of circumstances can totally change the way this goes down?

 

[MLR]

I understand that the officer does not have to tell you what his R.A.S. is. If it went to court it would come out then.
The question still remains though. Does he need it to detain you? Is carrying a weapon in itself R.A.S.? Are there exemptions to the R.A.S. rules? Exemptions that allow police to detain people without reasonable suspicion of a crime?

Michael

 

[okiebryan]

I can't find the court case at the moment, but there is case law that says that absent other factors, a visible sidearm is not RAS for a stop in a jurisdiction where open carry is not statutorily prohibited.

There's a lot of information on this at opencarry.org

 

[Glocktogo]

I have never had a problem with identifying myself if asked. I also have no problem with the following portion of the law.

Do police need R.A.S. of a crime to create the scenario I just highlighted? Does the fact that I am doing something that requires a permit negate the need for the officer to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed before he detains me?

Michael

Here's where they have you. You must have a permit in OK to carry openly, unlike some other states. Your permit requires that you notify and produce it if you're carrying and officially contacted by a LEO in the performance of their duties. You don't have the option to not produce your permit if asked. You're not being detained UNLESS you fail to notify and/or to produce the permit. If you fail to produce the required permit, they then have R.A.S. to detain you. They already know you're carrying since you're doing so openly, so you must produce the permit if it is requested.

When you signed for your permit, you agreed to these conditions. If you don't like these conditions now that open carry has been added, you always have the option of returning your permit to OSBI. Long story short, they can ask for your permit if they so choose, regardless of R.A.S. If you don't like that, then don't open carry.

 

[MLR]

:SNIP:
When you signed for your permit, you agreed to these conditions. If you don't like these conditions now that open carry has been added, you always have the option of returning your permit to OSBI. Long story short, they can ask for your permit if they so choose, regardless of R.A.S. If you don't like that, then don't open carry.

Thank you for the portion of your answer that I highlighted. That is what people need to know if they choose to open carry.
I'm not sure about the rest of the response and the attitude though.

Michael

 

[Glocktogo]

Thank you for the portion of your answer that I highlighted. That is what people need to know if they choose to open carry.
I'm not sure about the rest of the response and the attitude though.

Michael

The problem is that we've had numerous threads and disagreements on OSA where people want to argue the facts, when they're in fact arguing their opinions on how it should be. How is should be is not how it is unfortunately. I don't really care one way or the other. I think we should have constitutional carry. I also think if you've gone to the time, money and effort to comply with the state law for carry, you really shouldn't have an issue with showing your permit to any LEO who asks to see it. I paid a lot of money for mine and have no qualms about showing it when asked! It's no different than showing a hunting for fishing license that you've paid for.

I can't read intent on an internet post, so I laid it out like it is. Glad you appreciated the info and sorry if the "tone" of the post offended you. Carry on!

 

[MLR]

I have been on the phone with another member who agrees that the issue of being stopped and questioned merely for the reason that you are openly carrying a weapon is allowed currently in Oklahoma. There are some that claim that a Supreme Court ruling which said the following would prevent a person from being detained and asked for a gun permit without R.A.,S.

“that, except in those situations in which there is at least articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed or that an automobile is not registered, or that either the vehicle or an occupant is otherwise subject to seizure for violation of law, stopping an automobile and detaining the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile are unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment.”
The US Supreme Court held in Delaware v. Prouse (440 U.S. 648) (1979)

From what I have read this ruling only applies to vehicle stops and not any other activity. While their have been rulings in other States that the presence of a handgun is not in itself a reason to detain a person to check for a permit in other States this does not necessarily apply to Oklahoma.
There has been a lot of Internet bravado type statements being tossed around about what a person should do when confronted by police when open carrying. The trouble is that until it is all sorted out in the courts no one will actually know what the answer is for sure.
Personally I do not want or could I afford to be the test case.

If I have got any of this wrong feel free to correct me.

Michael