Reasonable suspicion/ R.A.S.

[ronin0829]

I have had several people tell me and have overheard people talk about how they can start open-carrying Nov 1st. These are people who have not read the law and don't know that they will have to have a handgun license. I have tried to educate these people, but I know that there are other people out there that have heard about open carry, and plan on doing it without knowing and understanding the requirements. As a Police Officer I think that having/overhearing these conversations has given me more than enough Reasonable Suspicion that some people may be carrying without a license. Does this mean that I am going to stop everyone that I see open-carrying? Probably not. Does it mean that I will stop some people that I see open-carrying? Yes, but it will all depend on the circumstances.

 

[MLR]

I have had several people tell me and have overheard people talk about how they can start open-carrying Nov 1st. These are people who have not read the law and don't know that they will have to have a handgun license. I have tried to educate these people, but I know that there are other people out there that have heard about open carry, and plan on doing it without knowing and understanding the requirements. As a Police Officer I think that having/overhearing these conversations has given me more than enough Reasonable Suspicion that some people may be carrying without a license. Does this mean that I am going to stop everyone that I see open-carrying? Probably not. Does it mean that I will stop some people that I see open-carrying? Yes, but it will all depend on the circumstances.

When it comes to reasonable suspicion is knowing that some people might be violating the law enough? Or does it require a R.A.S. that the individual you pick out is breaking the law? Isn't the part I highlighted a bit like saying that because many people choose to dive without a license or insurance that should give me reasonable cause to stop everyone?

Michael

 

[okiebryan]

I have had several people tell me and have overheard people talk about how they can start open-carrying Nov 1st. These are people who have not read the law and don't know that they will have to have a handgun license. I have tried to educate these people, but I know that there are other people out there that have heard about open carry, and plan on doing it without knowing and understanding the requirements. As a Police Officer I think that having/overhearing these conversations has given me more than enough Reasonable Suspicion that some people may be carrying without a license. Does this mean that I am going to stop everyone that I see open-carrying? Probably not. Does it mean that I will stop some people that I see open-carrying? Yes, but it will all depend on the circumstances.

I'd think that you could discern (with a good amount of accuracy) whether someone has a handgun license just by asking them and listening to their response. This would definitely fall under consensual encounter and could give you RAS for investigative detention, depending on the answer. "Uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh stammer...2nd amendment, it's my right!"

Now you are covered even if the provision in question gets overturned in appellate court, right?

 

[Kaw77]

is this the same or different from Probable Cause?

 

[MLR]

is this the same or different from Probable Cause?

Different, the standard for reasonable suspicion is lower than it is for probable cause.

"Reasonable suspicion" means that the officer has sufficient knowledge to believe that criminal activity is at hand.

"Probable cause" means that the officer must possess sufficiently trustworthy facts to believe that a crime has been committed."

Michael

 

[RedTape]

To sum things up...carry laws vary state to state. There is no other state with carry laws like OK, so we really can't apply their cases to ourselves. Unlike DLs (where you need PC for a traffic stop other than asking to see a license), our law was written giving LEOs the authority to stop a person openly carrying a gun to verify they have a valid SDA permit. If you have it, and there is no other RAS, you should be on your way.

 

[berettaman]

Simple Question:Standing in line at reasors/safeway/dollar general.ect=R.A.S.? yes or no?

 

[Glocktogo]

Simple Question:Standing in line at reasors/safeway/dollar general.ect=R.A.S.? yes or no?

RAS for what? To ask to see your license or to detain you? No RAS is required for the former, no RAS yet exists for the latter. Your ability to produce said permit will dictate whether there is RAS to detain you or not.

 

[CODE_3]

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69791


NEW LAW THAT WILL TAKE EFFECT NOV.1

POSSESSION OF LICENSE REQUIRED -

NOTIFICATION TO POLICE OF GUN

A. Except as otherwise prohibited by law, an eligible person shall have authority to carry a concealed or unconcealed handgun in this state when the person has been issued a handgun license from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, provided the person is in compliance with the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, and the license has not expired or been subsequently suspended or revoked. A person in possession of a valid handgun license and in compliance with the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall be authorized to carry such concealed or unconcealed handgun while bow hunting or fishing.

B. The person shall be required to have possession of his or her valid handgun license and a valid Oklahoma driver license or an Oklahoma State photo identification at all times when in possession of an authorized pistol. The person shall display the handgun license on demand of a law enforcement officer; provided, however, that in the absence of reasonable and articulable suspicion of other criminal activity, an individual carrying an unconcealed handgun shall not be disarmed or physically restrained unless the individual fails to display a valid handgun license in response to that demand. Any violation of the provisions of this subsection may be punishable as a criminal offense as authorized by Section 1272 of this title or pursuant to any other applicable provision of law. In addition to any criminal prosecution which may result from not carrying the handgun license and the required identification with the authorized pistol as required by the provisions of this subsection, the person may be subject to an administrative fine for violation of the provisions of this subsection. The administrative fine shall be Fifty Dollars ($50.00) and shall be assessed by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation after a hearing and determination that the licensee is in violation of the provisions of this subsection. Any second or subsequent violation of the provisions of this subsection shall be grounds for the Bureau to suspend the handgun license for a period of six (6) months, in addition to any other penalty imposed.

Upon the arrest of any person for a violation of the provisions of this subsection, the person may show proof to the court that a valid handgun license and the other required identification has been issued to such person and the person may state any reason why the handgun license or the other required identification was not carried by the person as required by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act. The court shall dismiss an alleged violation of Section 1272 of this title upon payment of court costs, if proof of a valid handgun license and other required identification is shown to the court within ten (10) days of the arrest of the person. The court shall report a dismissal of a charge to the Bureau for consideration of administrative proceedings against the licensee.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person to fail or refuse to identify the fact that the person is in actual possession of a concealed or unconcealed handgun pursuant to the authority of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act when the person comes into contact with any law enforcement officer of this state or its political subdivisions or a federal law enforcement officer during the course of any arrest, detainment, or routine traffic stop. Said identification to the law enforcement officer shall be made at the first opportunity. No person shall be required to identify himself or herself as a handgun licensee when no handgun is in the possession of the person or in any vehicle in which the person is driving or is a passenger. Any violation of the provisions of this subsection shall, upon conviction, be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding One Hundred Dollars ($100.00).

D. Any law enforcement officer coming in contact with a person whose handgun license is suspended, revoked, or expired, or who is in possession of a handgun license which has not been lawfully issued to that person, shall confiscate the license and return it to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation for appropriate administrative proceedings against the licensee when the license is no longer needed as evidence in any criminal proceeding.

E. Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize a law enforcement officer to inspect any weapon properly concealed or unconcealed without probable cause that a crime has been committed.

Historical Data

 

[okiebryan]

So how do we get certain cops to understand that the law is what it is? I've had almost a dozen conversations with various LE people over the past week. There is a lot of misunderstanding about what they are allowed to do. Some think they get to run a license through OLETS absent any RAS at all. Some obviously think it's OK to disarm and frisk those who have displayed their SDA license. Some think that a traffic violation gives them the "criminal activity" needed to seize and inspect (run the serial number). I'm pretty damn certain that's not what the legislature intended.